The E-commerce Leader

We are Michael Veazey in London, England,

J smiles in Seattle, Washington. More importantly,

you are the owner of a thriving online business. And you want to become the best ecommerce leader you can be. We’re here to get you there for show notes with links and resources mentioned today. And for other juicy resources like downloads and free mini courses. Just visit our blog, the ecommerce leader.com.

Mr. Jason miles in Seattle, Washington. How are you?

Good, man. How you doing?

Yeah, very well, actually. And I have to say that locked down in London, although it’s pretty grim for the people who are suffering and it’s been pretty good for me. I’m working really hard at home and seeing more of my wife and I usually do go for walks I do. Yeah. So how’s life with you in Seattle?

You same thing. We’re actually remodeling our downstairs area to get more work at home flow in the you know in the house, and We’ve all kind of figured out our system. I have three college aged kids who are all here with us, working for us. And one is still currently in college as we speak. So she’s trying to figure that out. We had to rescue her from Southern California a few weeks back, but we’re surviving and we’re healthy. And so you know, who can complain? Right? Not us. And we’ve got a lot of good things happening and, and we’ve got an opportunity to talk about some good topics today. So absolutely, yes.

A great topic. So strategies for profit profits. incredibly important word, everyone talks about it, but then a lot of people don’t actually habits who it’s one of your most passionate topics. I know. Why is it that you’re so passionate about this topic then?

Yeah, I you know, I think the the reality for for me was that we started our e commerce work as a side hustle. And I was working full time and had a great job as you know, ultimately, when I retired from nine to five work, I was Senior VP of Marketing at a university and so So, the side hustle piece for us, we went through over the course of five years, we went through episodes in our life where we really needed the money. And then we went through episodes of our life where we didn’t need the money. And in that five year period where it was a side hustle for me evenings and weekends, I think what I, I kind of got I got the vision I drank the Kool Aid and really, really wanted the, the laptop lifestyle, I guess you could say, or just the freedom that comes with, you know, having your own business and I you know, over that course of time, I was literally for the last four years before I retired from it, I was commuting three hours a day just to get to the work and but it was a good job, you know, but I that that time in my life, and those dynamics just made me realize profit, net profit profit from the the e commerce work that we put in our checking account is preeminent. I mean, it is the number one thing. It’s why we’re all in business. And I know a lot of times people get confused like, Well, why am I doing this? Well, I hate my boss, I want something else, or I feel insecure about my incomes, and I want something else, or, you know, I want the prestige of knowing I, you know, I’m saying I’m an entrepreneur, but the bottom line, at least for me in our household is putting money in our checking account is number one. And, you know, that’s why I think I’m just super passionate about this. And I’ve worked with now a lot of clients who will go through various stages of profitability or not being not profitable. And I’ve just come to the conclusion that they’re just tricks of the trade, strategies, tactics, things to work through, that really can make a huge difference. And I’m just, that’s it. That’s it. I mean, I could go on and on. Obviously, she couldn’t tell but what’s really important, passionate about this topic.

Yeah, that’s true.

It’s Yeah, that’s great. I mean, I think one of the things I think is great By being passionate about profit is because in internet marketing generally, and in the Amazon space anyway, particularly, there is a lot of passionate about sales and growth. And it’s kind of obvious thing to say. But it’s only by sort of calming down and thinking, what what am I not hearing about here that you suddenly realize how perfect that picture is? Because we don’t hear people banging on about their profit every time they go into a room of entrepreneurs say, Yeah, I made 80,000 profit last month. It’s I made $180,000 in net sales. Yeah, and yeah, and growth in sales, and we’ve grown to 100%. What does that growth mean? It means you’ve grown in revenue 2% It may be that your profit has gone down, and people don’t tend to talk in those terms. Right. So it’s an obvious thing to talk about, but it’s very neglected in the corner in the Amazon world would you say that’s true for your you know, Shopify or other base? You know, home of course.

Yeah. Yeah. And you know, we’ve all been in the Facebook groups where the noobs like the post there, you know, he looked at it made my first thousand dollars or I made my first, you know, $10,000 or I made my first $30,000 in a month. And I don’t, I don’t dislike those posts because it is a point of pride for people. And it is an opportunity to celebrate and get and a lot of times entrepreneurship can be lonely. So I it’s not that I don’t like those posts, but it’s there’s just a huge subtext that goes unspoken, when in those Facebook groups, he will do that, which of course is that has nothing to do with whether you’re, you know, actually profitable. And and so to me, that’s where the real, I guess American phrase, I don’t know, the rubber hits the road. It’s the real truth of the matter is, you know, what’s it look like? And so for, you know, for our journey, we became focused on the issue of net profit. And, and I was able to retire from nine to five and replace our incomes and we I’m happy to say we make now more money now. than we ever have in our life. And we manage our, we manage our net profit, we manage how much we take out of our business for tax purposes and strategic thinking and, you know, kind of growth of the business. And that’s a very different lifestyle and place to be financially. Then being an a side hustle where you’re posting about your first thousand dollars of, you know, sales that you made on Amazon. Yeah. And so, yeah, so and I just will just clarify a couple points. When I say profit from a from a small business, I mean, what you put in your checking account

I was going to ask you about I’m glad Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. So I mean, I just use the word you know, sales to, you know, men, you know, to talk about your top line, you know, ecommerce transactions, sales on any platform. And then I use the word profit to mean what you actually owners draw, if it’s an LLC structure, you know, like, if your LLC and yet get to a certain point you have w two income in the United States. Plus owners draw money. If you’re structured differently, you have different methods of taking money out of the business. But, but that’s what I mean by profit is just what you’ve personally, you know, taken out.

Okay. That’s an interesting point because I think that’s one of those points that is worth digging into because I know that Greg Crabtree who’s got a very complicated book title, but very, very good book. It’s called sunlight, simple numbers, straight talk big profits, and he’s a CPA, so an accountant in the US. I know you know, what a CPA is that anybody’s listeners might be scratching their heads. And he’s very into differentiating between the owners drawings versus the profit in the business because he says, look, first of all, you get two scenarios and I see a lot of this Amazon business so it was let’s dig into this. The first scenario is you get the business looks like it’s making a profit, but once you take any reasonable owner salary out of it, it’s not right and but they’re not taking anything so it looks like it’s profitable. And the other extreme, of course, is taking all the money out of the business and killing it. So What are your thoughts around that differentiation between the profit retained in the business versus the owners drawings?

that’s a that’s a profitability, sophomore level coursework, like step one, make money, profit. Step two, decide how to strategically use it. And so what he’s what he’s speaking to is sort of the nuance of once you actually have a profitable ecommerce operation, then how do you clarify that? Because I just as I just mentioned, we manage our profit that we personally take out of the business. implied in that comment is what he’s talking about, which is, you do want to think through how much you want to take as owners draws, or personal, you know, income, versus how much you want to use strategically inside the business to grow to acquire you know, new goods or you know, assets, etc, etc. Build a balance sheet of the, the business so yeah, I totally agree with his perspective and I guess I should say that in UK, what is a so a Certified Public Accountant CPA is the designation in the United States that people use for a licensed, you know, accountant? What’s your phrase? And we put a chartered accountant, which is very similar.

It sounds a bit like the king gave them a charter in 1300, which is the weird way Britain works is probably true. It’s a strange place. It’s an eccentric place. But the principles are the same. And again, yes, you have in terms of, we can actually have legally Limited Partnerships now, which is a sort of vehicle company structure, if you like a business structure we inherited from the States, but most of the time, it’s going to be a limited company. So we don’t have Inc versus S corp versus C Corp. And all that complicated difference that you get is basically private, limited company, only limited company if you’re on the stock market. So that’s not really open to most of us. And then Partnership, which is basically like a sole trader only you’re responsible for your partner’s

debts which is the wrong

Yeah. And then there’s LLP legally Limited Partnership, which is kind of I’ve not seen anybody use it for e commerce actually. So basically, it’s one one size fits all in UK, which is a limited company. And yes, then you can do things like you can take dividends to a certain point at a pretty low tax, I think it’s currently 7%. I can’t see that staying that low, especially after the government’s gonna pay all the debt back for the COVID-19 thing for the next 20 years. But anyways, and then you you take salaries, and there are various things you should do with your accountant. But, but I like coming back to your very fundamental point, good reality check, first make any kind of spare profit in the business and then secondly, worry about how you divide it that I like the reality check. So thank you for bringing that up. So that brings me to another question then about what your clients do. And we can sort of share notes on clients really and what they do because they vary wildly in the Amazon world. I know even some otherwise smart people. Profit is a bit of an afterthought for some of them, but let’s start with the good things. What are your profitable clients do best would you say?

Yeah, they have a profit and loss statement. And they run their business based on financial oversight and thinking, they say they use tools to understand where they’re at financially. And they’ve, you know, the profit and loss statement that is we teach and most of them, you know, the profitable ones have already done this. And that is they have a monthly profit loss statement that they build and, and then that rolls up to quarterly and then annual, and you have to do this work anyway, when you do your taxes. Once a year, some people waiting, don’t do any of this stuff, and then sort it out one time a year. You know, and so the the profitable operators do, they’re pretty dialed in on that stuff. And they have teams of people who help them do bookkeeping and that kind of thing. And they’ve just over the course of time, maybe because of their emotional need for it, or their business training previous. They’ve developed some tools and some were rigor around their thinking, and, you know, management of the funds. I think that’s the, that’s the first principle is actually knowing your numbers, and having them sorted in such a way that you understand you have visibility into profit. And you’re not just working off of a checking account or, you know, that kind of thing. As your as your source of truth, you know. Yeah. And so I think that’s the first principle and then there are many other principles, you know, that we have, everybody is inclined to either be a frugal person or a thrifty person or a spender. You know, and, and, and roll the dice type gambler. And so that everybody has a there’s a spectrum of people’s behaviors that you’ll see. But the people who are profitable understand their own thinking about money, and they’ve made games for themselves, that help them win, if you know what I mean. I mean, they’ve rigged their own little world. So They avoid their own stupidity. And they’ve set it up so that they’re, they find a way to be successful financially.

You know, that makes a lot of sense. I’ve been rereading the book, The E myth revisited, which isn’t he has nothing to do e commerce is about the entrepreneurial myth. And one of the things he talks about is, is is setting a game for your employees. But I think what’s included in that is the business owners. It’s important you have your own game that you play. So you set up a game you can win, but yeah, as you say, taking account of yourself now, I think that’s very wise. I mean, that’s one of the characteristics of entrepreneurs, I know that most of them hate bookkeeping, and they’re the smart ones recognize that and just hire a bookkeeper, right? It’s kind of simple right? But a lot of us

are pretty spotty on that. So what year in the Amazon space more I know an Amazon there’s just a different universe for cost of goods, you got to get your inventory you got to get you know, you and then you’re you’re baited into Large inventory purchases taking bets on inventory. Then you’re baited into financing your inventory. And then you’re baited, putting all your profit back into inventory. These are just these like these. There’s like a bread crumbs from Hansel and Gretel are leading it to the oven.

Well, when you see like, what do you see? Well, yeah, yeah, that’s incredible. This

is an interesting one. What do I see? I think I do see. Well, I think you just described it. The I see a lot of that with my clients, and then they really fall into two yards a bit. I mean, some people are really aggressively growing. And sometimes they’re really smart. And they do a lot of you see that the people I work with aren’t dumb. Like sometimes they’re too smart. They they get spreadsheets that do cash flow analysis, and it mean that business can can run and survive. But it’s not really making any profit and they’re not taking money out of it. So it’s kind of a fruitless endeavor for them. is very fruitful for Amazon and their customers. The good ones produce great products and deliver well. So somebody is benefiting as the customer is doing is very happy. The classic sells I like I remember, in the mastermind meeting back in September 2019, back in the old days before COVID. And yeah, I remember saying to one guy, we had a two day mastermind for once, normally one day, once a month, and I said, Please come back with a version of that spreadsheet you just created that actually shows you making some profit because I’m concerned, and also a feel for you, because I know you’re working really hard. And I knew him. Well, by this point. I could be that Frank and say, you’re working really hard, but you’re not getting the benefits for this.

Did you take that feedback? Did

he tell you straight back with a spreadsheet where he chopped about, you know, 4% of these costs by reducing the ad spend and Amazon’s a great way of spending spare money again, Jeff will be very happy about that because it’s cash flow, right? Yeah. And what else he just trimmed a few costs and he just put like doubled the profit that fell out the His model this is on paper, but even on paper, yeah, he was planning to not make a profit effectively and was okay with that. And I was just nervous about that. And also, I felt like you’ve been builders for three years, you should start to be able to take some kind of owner salary at this point,

when that voice of reason was, was shared with him, and you encourage him to do that. That’s the fascinating part about this to me, he was able to immediately go do that. It’s like you just you give somebody the hint of the right direction. And because a lot of times because of the volume at which we’re we have our clients are selling, aren’t we in our e commerce businesses, little hinges swing big doors as the day they really do anything, if you can cut something or change something. I mean, I you know, there’s so many cases where we’ve just seen horror stories of our in our own business where we’ve just, you know, we’ve realized we’ve just wasted and wasted and wasted Yeah, money and it’s like, you know, you waste He wastes a lot of money in one month you think, well, that should be a lesson learned. But if you do it for a whole year, like what I’ve been doing, yeah, how did we just blow $30,000 unneeded unnecessarily? Because we just didn’t think through like, and so anyway, yeah. It’s an interesting story you share. Yeah. Other other thoughts or lessons from your community or clients or your

Yeah, those there are other people who are very aggressively going for growth. And I don’t think most people in the Amazon space are aim for kind of steady state or gentle growth because they’re probably right to get progressive growth because the marketplace is growing and therefore you will lose market share and all sorts of bad things happen then. And all these great things happen when you own market share. So I’m a big big believer in the star principle which particularly relevant in Amazon, which is Richard cautious book, which is based on principles that the Boston Consulting Group two by two matrix beloved management consultants, so basically Find a market that’s growing more than 10% a year, which on Amazon is a joke. At least it has been, we’ll see what happens. But I think it will be in some cases even more extreme. And then make sure you’re the number one seller in that market meaning by market share, ie you have more revenue than preferably twice as much revenue than anyone else, which is why I think revenues irrelevant number by the way, it’s not about how big you are and how great you are. It’s like how small you are relative to the rest of the niche that you’re in. And so I’ve noticed that, too, you know, growth, aggressive growth is necessity. So then the question is, how does profit look in that area, and in that sort of model, and actually, the good businesses have got a tight control of their numbers, and they do have profit Fallout. They do reinvest most of it, but they have a certain amount, they’re coming out on owners drawings and a certain amount that’s kept in the business. So they have a bit more of a balance. It’s aggressive, but it’s tweaked a bit more towards the profit than some of the people who are just kind of growing and praying,

you know, in your in your community. Do you have people who We’re super strong advocates against leveraged finance you know borrowing loan taking loans in order is everybody on board with that train?

I mean it isn’t instant question that that there’s one businesses one more conservatively but he has to because I mean, the catalyst of that business that isn’t so great as we’ve got, like 30 staff and a turnover around the million pound mark. So that’s pretty, you know, that’s a very high overhead right now. I’d imagine he’s gonna be suffering but but he’s, he did come back on to that very point. He came back having listened to a lot of discussions where a lot of people talk about how they’re leveraging credit cards and debt from the bank and Abby had loaded up to the hilt with debt, which is very common in the Amazon space, sort of it is and Shopify and, and he looked at the organic growth that he could achieve and profits and actually came to a pretty big number, I don’t remember is certainly an Asian Tigers within about four years. So he would take Took the opposite approach, which is let’s look at one this business will threaten profit that’s look at what growth rate that gives me and then project forward and see that you still end it with a nice big number. Maybe that’s a bit more slowly.

Yeah, I think that whole issue, maybe it was so let’s do this. Let’s put a note in our little list here that topic of leverage in your business using debt to grow. That’s a whole topic, man. I mean, that’s a fantastic topic. So we should definitely set that aside. Maybe go deep into that. Yeah, definitely. Because there’s pros and cons each way. It’s, you know, there’s there’s advocates who are smart, who are on both sides of the conversation. So yeah, I love that one. Well, so this is a good I think this is a good sort of basic beginning to profit strategies. Anything else we haven’t touched on what else should we cover real quick in this one? Before we move on? Wow, I love this topic. Of course. Yeah.

That’s your your favorite question that I think I think we should confess some mistakes as I think it’s good to not just talk in theory. Yeah, I believe you are so you might have your server you’re behind the bike set in the UK

Yeah, no, it’s uh it’s painful, isn’t it to Oh yeah, my realize that you’ve you’ve messed up and I’m and I think the the biggest mistake that we have made personally and I hit the biggest mistake I’ve seen clients make the biggest way to zero out your profit is to over advertise unnecessarily to give them money to fake Facebook ads, give it to ATMs. Give it to you know, whatever Pinterest promoted pins on and on, you know, every platform, those platforms all have ad based systems for a reason. And it obviously juices revenue or top line sales if you do it right. But sometimes it doesn’t even do that. So, you know, we’ve had examples where and you know, you can double down on this error by hiring people. Who then manage the ads for you? And so that whole system of selling is one that we’ve gotten that down that path, we have spent plenty of money with good good people who are paid to make ads work for us. And we’ve turned those on and turn those off and gone through that whole site lifecycle, repeatedly. You know, I’ve done this now for 12 years. So I mean, I’ve, I’ve drank the Kool Aid and I’ve heard the pitch and I’ve seen how much money somebody can make for me and, and gone through the whole cycle multiple times. So that’s, I think that’s our biggest mistake. And because the question over time is what can you achieve with organic strategies versus paid and of course we all you know, use the system you just described on Amazon where in the star system where you want to be number one in a fast growing market. It it highly encourages you to ask advertise your way to the top. And, and if you can do that, and it works, it’s great. And, and I’ve done it, you know, I effectively use advertising. I, for our charity, as example have a charity ad grant from Google, and it’s $40,000 a month that I get to spend. So it’s not as if I’m not a proponent of advertising. But when it comes to profitability, that’s the best way to flush it all right out of the profit and loss statement.

So interesting to hear you say that. And thank you for your candor. Well, let me be equally candid, that the mistakes that I made particularly early on in Amazon, but I’ve done it every so often, even within the amazing FBA business as well, which is not a product based business. But Business is business. And it’s the same thing as overspending on advertising, particularly badly done advertising. And I have to say, that’s an absolutely classic mistake that pretty much all people who’ve got a small business come to me to try and grow it and they want to go I’m, yeah, well, they’re the sort of people who are really struggling to get out of the starting blocks, right? Kind of semi started. There’s there’s one way of defining a startup company, which is that when it reaches profitability, it’s no longer a startup, which is an insane metric. Right? Because by that metric, long Amazon businesses are not at startup mode yet. Yeah. And that there’s something to that because they’re not really sustainable. Yeah. But anyway, that’s that’s the classic thing. I look at that it’s been like a Wow. Okay, so yeah, this isn’t working out to your point. I’m really glad you raised that because I’m pretty passionate about the star principle. But here’s the thing a star business which is to say it’s in a high growth market and you are the market leader. The the investment strategy is invest invest invest, which by the way, can link him with borrowing heavily, which is another discussion so those overlap right, it gets complex. Yeah, but it often more more hopefully means you take money from the cash cows, the things that are steadily producing cash, but don’t have a great you know, trajectory ahead of them. Yeah, and reinvest that in the stars. However, the classic mistake I see is treating a me too product. Which is never going to dominate your niche because either niche is way too big, or you haven’t got anything like enough capital, or it’s frankly a boring old same same as everyone else product which is so classic with the Amazon, pure private label play, right? So you just slap a logo on an existing product, which I don’t advise people to do now unless it’s the starting point to to learn the system. But if that’s you, then then nothing’s going to rescue you and chucking advertising money at it is a disaster. So So

what you’re describing is, and this is, I think, an important point, when you become when you become an e commerce entrepreneur, you’re actually signing up for about four or five core trade skills that you have to become a professional. And advertising is absolutely one of them. And so it’s so easy to you know, everybody thinks they’re a professional marketer until they’re the ones responsible for the marketing. And then they realize, Oh, so and you know, and so professional marketing, of course, is a strategic game of a whole dance of things. Things in, that’s why nine mountains of traffic is our, you know, the that whole topic is there’s there’s a whole collection of things that are organic and, and then a collection of things that are paid and professionalism and that space is just what it’s just by default what you’re signing up for if you want to scale or building a team of professionals in that, you know, that trade skill. And so I think that’s a key lesson for a lot of new new folks is that they will have to go through the painful mistakes to learn their lessons the hard way be to become a professional marketer, if they’re going to scale now, you know, Amazon does so much for Amazon sellers, you don’t really realize how many times what’s actually occurring on the Amazon side of the ledger. But that but one of the things they do is get all of the visitors of course, that’s you know, that’s that’s what they’re amazing. And so anyway, so that’s I think that’s a key point. Yeah, it

is a by the way, this the phrase organic coming As a way of differentiating between paid and organic traffic strategies is a very meaningful phrase. But what interests me is another way of putting organic market growth is to create a positive feedback loop, I guess, which is to say that whether you’re spending money on ads or hiring writers to do Google SEO, whatever it is, that you end up, you put money into the system, it throws out a profit, and then you can reinvest that and then it cycles up. In other words, it’s going back to that strategy that that the client of mine was talking about, which is growing a business organically based on reinvesting some of the profits but you can do that very specifically for any very microcosm way with very particular products on Amazon that can very quickly ramp up the charts and and that’s how you, you know that you get those sudden overnight successes on Amazon, I think,

and the terminal concept in it the the speed at which you can scale, an ad based system is so alluring, but it’s not to say that there’s not a way to speed to grow quickly, organic based strategies. That’s obviously the term concept for organic base growth is called virality it’s it’s a viral campaign is is the terminal speed is like terminal velocity for an organic approach and understanding the difference between those two models where you’re not paying for it you’ve gotten it rigged in such a way that it’s growing have its own device is genius level marketing. And so that’s that’s a whole different topic but and but those things go into profitability, I guess is our point here.

So yeah, they To me, it was sort of sort of bashing around the point of profitability but but you know, the, to the point that you made about advertising, sucking up spare cash, absolutely. let’s not kid ourselves that these platforms are designed that way and I don’t have anything against them. But Amazon needs to make cash. Google needs to make cash and is that’s all it makes cash on Facebook, YouTube, I mean, that is their revenue is is advertising. Of course they make it seductive and gamify it and get you to focus on the top line rather than the bottom line. So

I think that’s what one is. comment on that one before we walk away from it. But then the other the opposite of that I do have clients come into our coaching practice. And I one of the first things I asked them to calculate is their total advertising cost. And then they’ll say, Well, I don’t spend any money. And I say, well, what’s your MS account? ad spend? And they’re like, Oh, well, that that’s different. That’s an Amazon. Like, no, that’s advertising. So then we, you know, we kind of parse it out, and we figure out what their advertising spend as a as a portion or percentage of their top line revenue. And I always encourage people that that should probably for healthy business be between like eight and 14%.

It’s funny, there’s the exact numbers. I was thinking, is that right? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Because I had a client that and that client I was talking about, by the way, he came along with a spreadsheet that even on paper showed a 4% profit and I said, Go and do something about your ad spend, which is 14% of revenue, which is really high because he had over high overheads, because he was a bit ambitious with team building relative to the revenue of the business and there are other complications. But basically the next day he came back with something where he tried To 10%. And of course, you’ve doubled the profit of the business. Right? It’s to the stroke, which goes to your point of, you know, that’s where a lot of your money gets sucked up. You’ve got to have advertising, but you’ve got to, it’s got to be, you know, trimmed. Yeah. managed, managed. And by the way, just one thing I wanted to tee up, because you, you talked about the tools that helped create profitability, I just want to say that we’re gonna be deep diving. And now I’m not gonna let you get away with that one. I’m like, we need tools for profitability. I want to know what they are. We’re online marketers, we’re addicted to tools. And my final question then to you, because because this is your, you know, your baby, this topic? What is it? You think? We talked about some of this sort of tactical level stuff that can lead into, you know, a lack of profit and some mindset stuff? We’ve touched on that? What do you think is the structural thing in the business that drives profit or loss? Do you think it’s about the structural thing, or is it more just about the owners mindset?

Oh, no, it’s definitely I mean, the business model you’re operating is like, it’s like the car you’re driving. And so the I think that so this is This tees up a fantastical, let’s do a whole episode on this one. In fact what maybe this is a good place for a pause and we jump into section two of this because the business models that you run with and you learn how to operate are it basically gives you the gearbox to tell you whether you get to go 10 miles an hour, or 30 miles an hour or 120 miles an hour. And I think that’s the that’s the thing to really understand when you get into e commerce is what are you doing? You know, what, what What business? Are you running businesses in? Yeah, exactly. None. It sounds

like it. Yeah, the existential crisis is actually something that people don’t have enough of actually, that they kind of just do stuff they don’t even aware of the fact that they don’t have a business model then understand what it is. So yeah, definitely, definitely an interesting topic. And I love By the way, if you are pitching me of course I’d be getting my credit card and I love the comments, because I happen to like cars and I love the fact that you got the gears again 10 miles an hour 120 so looking forward to that episode. Sounds really exciting.

Okay, and let’s do it, man. Let’s do it. That’s, that’d be a great one business models. Yeah, that’s fantastic. Yeah. Okay,

so that one’s coming up, folks if you’re listening up, but for now, just say, Well, thank you very much man. Very, very interesting as ever to talk.

Yes, that was not.

That was the e commerce leader podcast with Michael Veazey. In London, England,

Jason Miles in Seattle, Washington.

We offer you free help on our websites, including PDFs, videos and mini courses on topics like traffic products, and sales channels, some of our Amazon most offer any sales channel to get those and to stay up to date with our podcasts, go to www dot v ecommerce leader.com. Thanks for listening

Transcribed by https://otter.ai