The E-commerce Leader

[00:00:30]Intro-P2: [00:00:30] Welcome back folks to the e-commerce leader podcast. Today we’re in the middle of, I think, a fascinating discussion with Jason being the expert today on how to create digital products in three steps to unlock your potential, to teach others. And of course, to make some good money for yourself, a wonderful discussion, because Jason has done this multiple times.
[00:00:50] He’s got over 10 books out there. Many of them bestsellers. He’s also done multiple courses on eudaimonia has over 37,000 students on Udemy. So as a man who really knows what he’s talking about, and I’m really for one loving unpicking some of this great wisdom that’s in there. So the second thing we get to the second of the three parts and the second of three episodes on this topic is going to be on the question of how do we identify the best platform.
[00:01:15] To sell our goods on or through which the best medium , um, whether that be for example, YouTube and video or KVP and Kindle direct publishing and Amazon for books, for example, there’s other options, audio, books, podcasts, et cetera. So we get into the, the detail of that today, and I’m trying to figure out really how you make some choices for yourself.
[00:01:36] And that’s actually more subtle than just how to. Get your first video on YouTube, which is out there on YouTube ironically. So it’s a, sort of more, as much about handling your own mind and making decisions as it is about anything else. So Jason’s obviously been through this process multiple times himself , uh, very valuable stuff to do, take notes and see at the other end of the show.
[00:01:56] Enjoy.
[00:01:57] Jason: [00:01:58] I think that’s a, just a, an amazing place we’re in right now with so many , uh, you know, publishing opportunities that exist now and they just, there’s more coming up all the time.
[00:02:08] And so I think it breaks down along a few lines, sort of , uh, you know, behavioral lines. Are you comfortable being on video , um, or, or are you comfortable speaking or are you comfortable writing? Which of those three? And if you say I hate all of those then might have some problems, but if you say, well, I really don’t mind talking to people, but I’m not comfortable on camera.
[00:02:29] There you go about podcasting could be an opportunity for you, or if you say, no, I just like to ride, I don’t want to really be live with anyone or , uh, you know, that kind of thing. Well then maybe eBooks are an opportunity. So, you know, the modalities is what I call it in terms of publishing. Um, and then the, the platforms and they kind of are linked hand-in-hand, but , um, let’s just talk through some of the platforms first.
[00:02:47]Um, you know, there are, I think what you would call sort of. Self-managed tools that you kind of just do whatever you want on, and then there are hosted or managed tools that you kind of have to go through hurdles to be a part of. So the self-managed tools or like YouTube channel, anyone can start one and you can just boot it up and start doing videos.
[00:03:06]Um, uh, you know, Kajabi, you can create your Kajabi site and start doing courses and, and, and , uh, publishing that way , uh, teachable , uh, platform. You can create your own course on teachable and you’re completely in charge of, you know, what’s there. So those self, you know, self-managed do whatever you want, kind of tools are available.
[00:03:23] And then there are hosted or managed systems. That , uh, are available to us. And so the hosted systems , um, are, you know, things like , um, you tummy, which you mentioned, I think I have , uh, 37,000 students over the, over that amount now on you to me. Um, but other sites like Skillshare , um, and these are all sites that are to some degree gated, I guess you could say , um, you have to get something approved on them.
[00:03:48]Um, Kindle direct publishing , um, you know, for Amazon, I guess is somewhere in between where it’s just loosely gated. Like, I mean, you can put pretty much anything in an ebook. Uh, that’s not dangerous or whatever, but yeah. But, you know, you still have to go through a process to publish. And the customers, of course, on Amazon are their customers, not yours.
[00:04:06] So you, you start to learn over time. Okay. What are the platforms available to me? And which ones do I like or dislike the most? They all have pros and cons and , uh, they all have a degree of complexity that you have to learn, but the beautiful part is, you know, just go to YouTube or you to me and, and, you know, search for what you’re trying to do.
[00:04:27] I want to publish an ebook. I want to create a, you know, class on teachable. I want to, you know, create a podcast, whatever it is. Um, and the expert will emerge and their step-by-step guide will walk you through how to do , uh, you know, those , uh, those , um, platforms. And so I think that’s, that’s sort of the first question.
[00:04:45]Um, if you had to ask me my opinion, I would say it depends. So it’s not really helpful for me to rank order them favorites. Cause it would just be unique to me and Michael, you probably have a list that is unique to you as well, but we all have to come up with our own unique lens.
[00:05:00] Michael: [00:05:00] Yeah, that does make sense in terms of the individual platforms.
[00:05:03] And obviously we have our sort of favorites. I just love podcasting as, as a social media sort of channel. And I guess it’s not traditionally a, a paid media mother. It can be, it’s not a, not common, but yeah, someone at YouTube, again, traditionally not paid, but it can be. But one question that seems fairly fundamental to me is whether as a, as an Amazon seller of physical products and versus the Shopify angle where you own the customers, I mean, that does seem a profound differentiation to me.
[00:05:28] So you’re, you’re an instant case in that you, you sell physical well, your, your e-commerce products actually also digital downloads of course, on your own site, but the you publish on Amazon’s platform and that you’ve done your courses on Udemy is platform. So tell me what your thinking is behind that, that choice.
[00:05:47] Why not? Why did you not, for example, go down the self hosted route where you’d have control over the customer relationship, your
[00:05:52] Jason: [00:05:52] courses. Tension on sort of a spectrum in this regard and on the one end of the spectrum, it’s like you have all the data like you, you know, everything about who’s buying and all that.
[00:06:05] It’s great. That’s beautiful. But the other end of the spectrum is , um, you don’t have any of the data, but there’s a huge marketplace that exists. And so if you set up your own teachable course and create whatever you want on your website and have it there, you have literally zero visibility, zero eyeballs, zero traffic, Amazon on the other hand has basically all the traffic in the world.
[00:06:28]Uh, and so that’s the tension point. So yes, you can collect all your own data and make your own pricing decisions and make your own money on your own website. Um, and so inherent in doing that is your need to do marketing. And so there’s this kind of spectrum of, okay, what makes most sense? Go on Amazon.
[00:06:48] Eyeballs are and a built-in marketplace, but you don’t have the data or publish on your own site. And as I’ve already mentioned, if you approach this as a catalog business, then you say to yourself, the answer isn’t either, or the answer is both. And so you use these , uh, platforms as, as appropriate , um, and create , uh, You know, stuff for Amazon , um, and for the marketplaces like you to meet, and then you can create stuff on your own website, if you’re willing to do the marketing.
[00:07:17] And if you’re, you know, you’re willing to spend time and energy and over time grow a business that is direct to consumer. And so, you know, th that’s the, that’s the trade off instead of tension points. Um, and you just have to find your way forward and navigate through that spectrum.
[00:07:31] Michael: [00:07:31] Yeah. If we had to simplify it down grossly for somebody who hasn’t started a , uh, a , um, information type business yet, but they have experience with physical products.
[00:07:39] So property, quite a few people listening and imagine. Yeah. Where would you advise people to start? Uh, if you had to choose between not a specific platform, but between self hosted versus on an existing marketplace, like a
[00:07:49] Jason: [00:07:49] unit, I would encourage them to start on a marketplace. You to me , um, or the KDP Kendall, you know, publishing for eBooks , um, that kind of thing.
[00:08:00]Um, I, I would go to a marketplace first. Yeah, for sure. And then learn over time. Do you like this? Do you like teaching? Is it a fun? Is it an exciting, is it energizing? Do you feel like you’re getting some momentum forward and then build from there?
[00:08:12]Michael: [00:08:12] Makes a lot of sense. And what I guess I like about it as we’ve discussed with the physical product creation from scratch in the past, that if there are lots of moving parts to these things, so it’s bad enough trying to create a course or, you know, it’s complex enough, should we say maybe exciting, but also habits, doubt points, I guess.
[00:08:27]Um, and , uh, one of the things, I guess you can bypass is the need to worry about building traffic sources and conversion rates and all that. Cause you didn’t mean to doing it for you for courses or Adam’s instinct for books. So yeah, that does make sense. Okay. Very, very interesting. So now we’ve got another huge area of questions in having, as you suggested that you may be doing video courses, you may be doing books.
[00:08:48] So those are a couple of forms that the teaching can actually take. But tell us a bit more about your thinking about how do we actually express
[00:08:53] Jason: [00:08:53] that. Yeah, I call those the modalities of the content. What modality is it in? I don’t know if that’s word or not, but it just makes sense in my mind. So that means, is it a video based teaching?
[00:09:05] Is it a webinar where you kind of use PowerPoint and, you know, kind of voiceover PowerPoint? Uh, is it a ebook? Um, is it a ebook and the companion paperback and or companion audio book, like, you know, how it kind of trifecta on Amazon? Um, is it , um, group coaching or one-on-one coaching? Is it free YouTube videos?
[00:09:23] You know, is it a podcast there’s so many modalities and, and again, this goes back to sort of what you’re most comfortable with. If you’re most comfortable. With , uh, you know, conversation then , uh, you know, maybe podcasting is the way to go. Um, if you’re most comfortable writing your thoughts out and working on it, refining it before anybody sees it, maybe writing is a way to go.
[00:09:43]Um, and maybe if you like video, but you want it to be structured, then you do sort of the webinar format where you’ve got like, slide one, slide two, slide three, and you can talk through it. Uh, but you’re still kind of, you know, on camera. Um, and so these modalities are just the fielder’s choice here. It depends on what your personality is and which one you’re most comfortable with.
[00:10:01] And I think over time, what we do as educators. Is, we do one that we’re most comfortable with. And then we try the next one and we end up over time , uh, getting comfortable with each of these , uh, modalities. And we find the ones that work best for us, for our audience and for growing our, our, you know, followership or our listeners or readers or viewers and , um, and go from there.
[00:10:27] Michael: [00:10:27] So I guess what you’re trying to, what you’re saying is, is. Kind of your comfort zone and then over time, you’re going to develop more modalities anyway by
[00:10:35] Jason: [00:10:35] necessities. Is that okay? And it’s horses for courses. Yeah. I mean, there’s so many options. It’s kind of like what suits you best, you know, like in, are you a Mudder, which is the old Seinfeld joke, right?
[00:10:46] The horse that runs good mud, I guess. I don’t know, but you know, are you, are you good at, you know, better at writing where you have iterative process or not, are you better at just impromptu conversation? Um, and, and there you go. So that’s the, that’s the thing to start to narrow down on. And once you say, oh, I’m most comfortable with this, I’m going to learn how to do, how you know how to do it , uh, as best I can.
[00:11:06] Michael: [00:11:06] So interesting. I was reflecting , um, I think I was reading a book by Neil Strauss who wrote the game. So don’t judge me. He’s now kind of moved out of that, but a very interesting writer and thinker. He just happened to be in a pretty ghastly field for awhile, which thank goodness he’s moved out off. But he said that whenever he interviewed somebody, because he was a writer first.
[00:11:23] A paper out in LA. I think so, whatever you wrote is interview somebody who just could not stop talking in vast amounts. They were basically either on drugs or a writer, which is insane. So somebody is very, very detail oriented. The way I write outlines for podcasts indicates to me that I should be thinking about writing a book because I’m just too detail I did.
[00:11:41] So sometimes you’ve got to know yourself a bit haven’t you and get a hint about you may be doing a, but B is calling. And in my case, I guess that’s books for sure. But the other thing that strikes me is that there’s a huge and really unsettled price point difference in expectation and reality price point, but between books and video courses, particularly, so books generally seem to sell for pretty modest amounts of video courses.
[00:12:02] Traditionally go for anywhere between 200 bucks and even up to 2000, if you can really push it on your own site. So what are your thoughts about that? Does that push you in a particular direction? Or do you think that’s a, the Lira fool’s gold?
[00:12:15] Jason: [00:12:15] I think there’s a lot. Various opportunity, depending on what you want to do.
[00:12:21] There are people who have monetized YouTube channels that are rich and they’d just make YouTube videos and upload them. And they don’t worry about any of the financial details. They don’t worry about price points or, or anything. They just make content, just put it on YouTube and they’re educators in their own.
[00:12:38] Right. And so, you know, it’s deceptively simple that way. There are other people, of course, who do a lot of videos on YouTube and it goes nowhere. So the, it is a fundamental question. I think there’s a, a very , um, you know, unique set of opportunities for all of us as educators to play with the different ideas.
[00:12:58] And, you know, you, you can make a $5,000. And you can get people to buy it. You can also get rich making content for free. It’s just such a, a D it’s like w H what do you make of that? It’s like, there’s just many paths. And the question is, do you understand the monetization strategy behind each one? And you know, if you’re going to go for amazingly good content on YouTube that you give away for free, you understand, of course the , uh, the monetization of that on the backend, through the YouTube ad, you know, system and what that would mean for you.
[00:13:35] And if you want to sell eBooks , uh, through KDP or paperback, you understand what the monetization system means, and you learn these things over time. And I would just say again, like my mantra is treat this like a catalog business where you do one thing and you try it and like, oh, I made fill in the amount.
[00:13:53] You try a different thing and you say, oh , uh, I made a different amount. Maybe it’s more, maybe it’s less. And over, you know, two or three or four projects. What you’ll come to realize is , um, there are things that you can do that are more profitable than others and you find your way forward. Um, and so there’s no one perfect answer.
[00:14:13] I think what is really, really important is to get good at your trade cap craft as best you can. Are you helpful? Do people enjoy your content? Is it witty and interesting and you know, do people, you know, want to pick it up and, and, and jump into it with you. And those components are the root of the profitability.
[00:14:36] And so, I mean, I think that’s the most important thing to think about, you know, you think of someone like Malcolm Gladwell, who is. Um, just an insanely good author. And you ask yourself the question, how, how is he different than Jason Miles author? Who’s maybe let’s be honest. I mean, not, not nearly as popular in any way, shape or form.
[00:14:58]Uh, it does come down to Tradecraft. Um, and so, you know, I, I think to me at the end of the day, this is about challenging yourself to get better at something and, and being realistic with yourself about saying, well, I might be average at this, but man, I’m going to try 10 times in a row until I can get from, you know, see in grade schools, grades to C plus, and then maybe I can get from C plus to B minus.
[00:15:24]Um, and that’s how I like to look at it. And with an honesty. The level at which you’re operating, but then there’s the desire to improve upon it over time. So hopefully it helps a little, I don’t know if I went off on a tangent there,
[00:15:38] Michael: [00:15:38] but no, not at all. I think this is all really helpful. I mean, the one, the one thing that makes stands out to me so much with the word, treat it like a catalog business, really the same advice.
[00:15:49] You’d give anyone selling physical products on a store, whether it’s on Amazon or your own store. Yeah. Very, very interesting that actually there’s such a big overlap, which makes me think that, that one of the things you’ve said before, and I think it’s worth just reiterating that you’ve had success with your class doing this, this isn’t something I’ve tried to teach yet, but that really the division is artificial anyway, that people with physical products , um, stores, especially their own like Shopify, but probably not limited really should be looking into adding physical products at sorry , uh, digital products, which we’ve talked about separately before, but just let’s just tie that in so that the word catalog is the crossover for me.
[00:16:22] What are your thoughts?
[00:16:23] Jason: [00:16:23] Well, if you think about it in reality, If you pull up your phone and you tap on two or three or four buttons, and you’ve gotten something, tell me whether that was a digital product or a physical product right now. I mean, you
[00:16:37] Michael: [00:16:37] can’t do it. No difference. People buy products, essentially
[00:16:41] Jason: [00:16:41] buy the buying process is exactly the same.
[00:16:47] Yeah. Right. I mean like cinnamon, what we were driving to to see the new Avengers movie yesterday. And she wa and I, I told her I’m trying to computer project and, and , um, I said, let’s just buy this on Amazon. So she looked on her phone on Amazon, bought me a couple of things with literally two taps, and it’s gonna be delivered today to our house.
[00:17:05] And I just said to her, that is just so amazing, but you know, that could have been an information product just as easy. And, and so in, in actual reality, the e-commerce business has digitized the whole entire. And so there is no distinction for customers between a digital good and a physical good in terms of the buying and , uh, you know, process and all that.
[00:17:29]Um, it’s an artificial barrier we’re putting in our mind when we, as the business owner or marketer or product manager say to ourselves, I’m not in the digital goods space. That is an arbitrary distinction that we would be, I think, very smart to jam together with, you know, what we’re really doing, which is just selling stuff.
[00:17:50]Michael: [00:17:50] Just selling stuff. I like it. This is great insight. I mean, I suppose that would encourage anyone who’s listening. Who’s saying why, why am I bothering to listen to this apart from, you know, I subscribe to, to Jason Michael awhile ago, but I sell physical goods. Why is this relevant? And the guest, you just had your answer that everyone’s buying digital goods and sometimes the delivery pathways digital, and sometimes when you go to off of ups.
[00:18:10] So that’s really weird, isn’t it to think about it, but it’s so true. It is very weird saying to people when people buy , um, on Amazon, they’re buying an offer. They’re not buying physical goods. Yes. If your physical goods allows you to get a rubbish review and that will affect the digital process, but really what they’re buying is a promise.
[00:18:26] They’re buying an offer. And to your point, I guess if the offer is then delivered in the form of central digital. From the marketing point of view, it’s not really any different. I mean, the delivery is, is difficult, but as we’ve said already, I mean, physical products , uh, take a lot of money and have to travel around the world.
[00:18:41] So they’re vulnerable to war and trade issues and physical capacity constraints. Whereas the digital products, obviously not prone to those. So if nothing else in 2021, when physical products is so, so challenging, it’s worth taking this, this , uh, seriously all over again. So yeah, the next thing we’ve got to talk about, then you’ve mentioned as the third step, reinvesting your proceeds.
[00:19:00] I mean, that’s , uh, that’s quite a sort of grown-up conversation to have when, if we haven’t necessarily even sold a product yet a digital product. Why is that in your list when it’s sort of relatively early days for a lot of us?
[00:19:12] Wrapup-P2: [00:19:13] Hey folks. Thank you so much for listening to another episode of the e-commerce leader. We’re in the middle of a three episode mini series on how to create and choose your own digital products and how to make the most money from those as well. So, Today’s topic was all about choosing modalities. In other words, is it video?
[00:19:33] Is it a book, audio book, podcasts, et cetera. And then platforms. Is it YouTube? Is it Skillshare? You know, you et cetera. Now, one interesting question that came up that I thought was very valuable as if you have to choose between a self hosted platform where. Yes, you get control, but you have to find the audience and to get the traffic , um, versus going to an existing place.
[00:19:54] For example, you, to me, if you’re selling a digital course, Or Amazon or KDP, Kindle direct publishing. If you’re selling a book, then Jason’s advice is start with the latter, start with an established platform that at least brings the traffic. And yes, you don’t get to control the relationship with the audience.
[00:20:12]Um, but at least they solve that problem of the traffic piece. So sounds like great advice in the end. Uh, if you’re thinking about it as a catalog, then you’re going to end up trying both quite potentially. So that’s an interesting one for me and the best modality. Really, again, very simple advice from, from Jason, which is start with what’s your comfort zone.
[00:20:32] So if you love video recording, then do that. If you like writing, if you’re more comfortable away from the camera and do that, but over time, you’re going to develop your skills. Anyway, so it doesn’t have to be either or over time, you’re going to end up probably doing what I’ve ended up doing. For example, on what Jason and I are doing is, is doing a podcast which is also video.
[00:20:51] Jason’s done pretty much everything else in terms of information marketing. So the podcast was the last piece that he hadn’t done, and that’s why we ended up collaborating on it. So there’s an example of somebody went from writing through two online courses. Um, and then YouTube and, and now finally podcasting.
[00:21:07] So that is probably going to happen for you as well. And that was an instance. Thing to learn as well. The final piece for me, that was a reality check from Jason is the idea that in my mind, that there’s a price point that varies hugely between modalities books. Traditionally, you get a lot less than online courses, but as Jason pointed out, absolutely rightly there are people who become rich just from focusing on YouTube.
[00:21:28] So I guess what I’m taking from that is focused on what you’re good at and get good at something , uh, rather than chasing the dollar. And that makes sense to me, the irony being, of course, if you do something really, really well, you’re going to make more money than if you just chase the money in the first place.
[00:21:40] And that seems to be a common theme that I’ve seen. And again, again, in business, in my own life, in my clients and also with Jason, so fascinating stuff. As I say, I think I learned a huge amount about this, and I’ve had a lot of conversations with Jason, thanks to the podcast. Um, so hope you enjoyed it as well.
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[00:22:38] Hope you enjoyed the show and see you next time on the e-commerce leader.
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