The E-commerce Leader

[00:00:00] Michael: Really one of the main jobs of sales copy is not to necessarily just build desire for the product and moving towards it, which, although that is important, it’s to remove the barriers that get it between the person and fulfilling their desire.
[00:00:13] In other words, fears really, or objections.
[00:00:15]
[00:00:46]
[00:01:23]
[00:01:23] Jason: Radically improving your conversion rate comes down to a few key ideas. One of them being the copywriting you use for your products on your website. And in this episode of the e-commerce leader, we’re going to do a deep dive into all things copywriting so that you can transform from where you’re at to excellence in copywriting.
[00:01:43] Michael, are you ready to do that?
[00:01:45] Michael: I’m absolutely ready to this. Yeah. I love this topic.
[00:01:47] Jason: All right, let’s do it. So this is a freeform episode here a little bit, but we’ve got a nice collection of copywriting tips and tricks that we’re going to mention and the books behind them. And so I think part of the outcome of this, this episode in particular probably would be a whole stack of books that people might want to go by.
[00:02:05] Yeah. And so you’ve probably got more in your mind already than I have listed here, and I have a few more. We’re going to have quite a collection of copywriting, specific books for people to check out. But let me just mention the first one that I’ve got on the list here and walk through the, the concepts in it that are valuable for copywriting.
[00:02:24] And then Mike would love your perspective on that. The, the book is, influence by Robert Robert Cialdini. Many, many people have, you know, read this book and if you’re new to it, I’ve never read it or seen or heard of it before. It’s a fantastic book to get a child. Deni is a science guy and he talks about persuasion techniques.
[00:02:42] And so the, the thesis behind this is, you know, influencing people’s psychology with specific, techniques, or really, he writes it in such a way that he explains how people’s psychology is influenced by specific techniques. And then of course he realizes everyone wants to apply. And so let’s just talk through those for a minute to the list is a short list and, really powerful concepts.
[00:03:05] The first one is reciprocity, meaning that people are inclined to do something for you if you’ve done something for them. So giving them something for free, creates an environment in which they’re predisposed to be, you know, nice back in essence, that’s reciprocity, commitment and consistency is the next one.
[00:03:24] And that is that people psychologically want to follow through on things they started. This is where you get the idea of the sunk cost concept or sunk cost fallacy, where people are, I guess you could say in poker terms or pot. If people are into something, then they follow through. Generally their mind wants them to finish those tasks.
[00:03:43] And so commitment and consistency is a key, psychological influence. Social proof is another one. Social proof is the concept that all of us are influenced by what other people like, what other people value the, vanity metrics and social media, as it happens matter for the purpose of social proof.
[00:04:01] And you might think Manatee metrics are stupid. Now how many Twitter followers you have or YouTube subscribers or whatever, but to a prospect, it sends a signal. And so that’s the power of social proof. That the next one is authority. Positioning yourself as an authority in the mind of the consumer central idea, the next one is liking people, buy from people.
[00:04:24] They like, and the old idea of, you know, you want your customers to know like, and trust. Plays into that. And then the final one is scarcity. People are, move powerfully by scarcity and, people want what they can’t have and they’re moved by, urgency and scarcity triggers. For sure. So, Michael, what are your thoughts on Cialdini?
[00:04:44] Great, what book and work
[00:04:46] Michael: absolutely love this book. I was introduced to it. Gosh, when I first got into that marketing front, about 2007, I’ve got a copy somewhere that I haven’t read for a while. Plus basically, cause I’ve cuase I memorized it. I think I’ve got underwritings and underlinings and highlights and goodness knows what in it.
[00:05:00] And I, I think this book is absolutely fantastic and here’s what I take from it. People think marketing because that’s what it looks like is about words, images, and videos. And I don’t think there’s it all. I think really the key to great marketing is understanding psychological principles and really the ones you really need to know about are if you read no other books about marketing psychology, I think the child, any book is the number one that I would recommend.
[00:05:22] It’s very straightforward for a scientist. It’s very untechnical but it’s very, very clear. It’s very authoritative. There’s a lot of studies that go behind stuff. And what’s interesting is it comes for the, I don’t know, seventies or eighties, but it’s still absolutely true today, I think. And what happens now is that digital market has become so complex in the medium.
[00:05:40] That it feels like everything’s changed, but I don’t think it has because the psychological principles is based on a, still the same. So for me, the simple use of this books, chapters, and you just outlined those a really fantastic checklist for starters and a very practical way. If you just use this and go through your marketing campaigns, is there a reciprocity, you know, are you doing something for your customers before you expect them to do something for you?
[00:06:01] Often you’ll find your email marketing is just, you know, sudden death and nothing else. It’s like, hello, we’re doing a 90% sale buyer stuff. Thanks. And then nothing for three months, the commitment consistent. You’re getting people to give you an email that just before you get them to do something else before you get them to buy, before you get them to subscribe, do you have social proof?
[00:06:18] You know, have you got a Facebook group, for example, blah, blah, blah. What authority have you got? Have you got an endorsement by a celebrity, et cetera. So if you use it as a checklist, you will massively improve your market just by that. And so I think there’s just so much in this book. I’m a huge.
[00:06:36] Jason: Yeah, totally agree.
[00:06:37] Okay. So that’s Cialdini, let’s just rattle through these and talk about ideas. I think that would probably be the most common book people have heard of before. There’s another book that I appreciate in a copywriter. I really appreciate it followed for more than a decade. And I usually know the quality of copywriters.
[00:06:52] If you get on their email list and you’re still following them a year or two later, you’re like, okay, they, they eat their own dog food. They know what they’re doing and they keep me interested. And, and so Bob Bly is the guy’s name is not that well known, but he has a book called the copywriter’s handbook and he has newsletter, you know, stream that you can get into that is packed with great information.
[00:07:15] And his four SS framework is an interesting little tool. And his goal for it is reader comprehension. One of the most powerful parts of copywriting is the idea of using incredibly. Language to communicate incredibly powerful ideas and the simpler, the language, the more comprehensible it is, and you want reader comprehension to be insanely good for your work.
[00:07:42] And so his forest is our number one, small words, number two, short sentences, number three, short paragraphs and number four short sections. So in essence, everything chunked down to simple and short, you know, small bits that people can easily understand and comprehend. And, you know, in a lot of ways on Amazon.
[00:08:04] And I remember, we’ve talked about this before in the podcast, Michael, that I was at a conference here in Seattle and one of the Amazon, people got permission to speak at the conference. They don’t speak generally. And he, it was, it was in essence in charge of the product page on Amazon. Like he was, he’s been there for like 20 years or whatever, and he’s like, he’s doing.
[00:08:23] And, he just said, you know, I can’t tell you exactly how to rig the system or anything like that, but I can tell you that people radically under utilize the bullet points. So if your bullet points are insanely well constructed and thought through, then you need to look at that as a pro tip. And so, you know, this is very powerful stuff on Amazon, and I think it speaks to what Bob is talking about, where read your comprehension is super important.
[00:08:49] Michael: Yeah, I really agree with that. I think Clara’s here. It’s, it’s gradually taken me years to get to this point, the simplicity, but I really think clarity is the absolute number one priority for marketing work. And, this is the heart of the matter for me. I mean, writing great copy. As in being very, very good at the craft of writing words is really powerful, but I think what people miss is, it’s a bigger thing than that.
[00:09:09] I think before you can communicate clarity clearly to other people, you have to be very, very clear in your mind. I want to say other things. I don’t mean just your consumers, although that’s obviously important. I mean, people like your graphic designers and photographers or videographers, if you’re doing modern marketing on Amazon or Shopify, anything physical product space is very, very visually oriented.
[00:09:29] But what I think is critical is to use words, to clarify for yourself and have conversations as well. I’d go over and over and, and refine. And what you tend to find you do is just remove stuff. For example, I’ve just been writing, it’s not for physical product, just be writing scripts for, on you sponsor either the.group and, to get a podcast script that that is really gets everything across.
[00:09:50] But within 60 seconds or preferably 30 seconds for pre-roll is really an art and you just. Getting within cutting, cutting, cutting, and the great app for this. By the way. As the Hemingway editor, Hemingway is famous American stylist who believes in cutting unnecessary stuff out and I’ve got it here. It’s really cool.
[00:10:07] Hemingway app.com. You’ve got to try and aim for fewer than three adverbs. Don’t use the passive voice one, three times. Keep it extremely simple, very short sentences. It’s very good. And it really does strip everything down to essential. And it’s so it’s the, that reminds me of that Bruce Lee quote, which is something like the hearts of cultivation is not adding it is taking away.
[00:10:26] And it’s really true marketing that a lot of the best marketing seems very simple because it is, but it took a lot of work to get to that point. And that’s not to be honest,
[00:10:35] Jason: so many wise business.
[00:10:39] Michael: Yeah. I don’t know. Cause he was wise and wisdom his wisdom, I guess. Yeah. I mean it’s, it really is true. I think that the really great marketers.
[00:10:47] Consider a lot of options. I mean, if I’m writing it, I’m not saying a great Moxie, but if I’m writing a title of a talk or something, I w another thing I went through recently, I had to compress what I was trying to get across with the messaging for the entire business. Amazing FBA into 10 words for the cycle of, the conference I’m speaking at next week at the white label expo in Frankfurt doing keynote address there.
[00:11:09] And it took me about half an hour and I wrote for 30 different variations. And eventually came up with something that was, I thought, a honed, if not perfect, 10 word thing. So don’t underestimate this, it takes work, but it’s really important work, I
[00:11:23] think.
[00:11:24] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. Right. Okay. So that’s Bob Bly. The next, set of, ideas here is from me from e-commerce power book, but they’re derivative ideas from other people.
[00:11:33] So I don’t take credit for them in, in, in any way, but I would just say this, for Shopify sellers in particular for your copyright. And your sales emphasis. You want to focus on the top of your homepage. People horribly mismanaged their slider on the top of their homepage. And the number one choice there that people make the, incorrectly is that they create branding or general marketing messages and put them on a slider.
[00:12:02] And that in essence is a total waste of the top of your, your site. The top of your site should be a call to action, to buy a specific product that you’re, clearly presenting in an appealing way. And ideally it’s a product, you, you know, your best product or a product, you know, that customers like to buy as a first product.
[00:12:21] And you want to have that be crystal clear, no ambiguity, and it needs to be, changed over time, like probably weekly. So you’ve got a top of site that changes for when people come back. But most Shopify sites that are failing in terms of conversion rate or. The top of their homepage is not very well thought through.
[00:12:40] And so that’s, that’s one thing. The second thing is, you want to have direct and clear offers, and no ambiguity, no general categories offer like shop our full collection of everything because we’re awesome everywhere. And it’s all our products. It’s gotta be super concise. Like, you know, our potholder number two in red is 50% office week or whatever.
[00:13:03] The third thing is, you know, single focus, not multi focus. So this is sort of the same idea. And then, as I said in the prior episode that we were just recording a bit ago, a confused mind says no, or go slow. You want to have really, really clear thinking that you’re presenting. And then finally, this is not my original phrase, but you want to join the conversation occurring in the customer’s mind.
[00:13:28] You want to speak into what they need, what they’re trying to achieve, their fears, their uncertainty. What their goals are. And, and the better you can speak right into that. The more they’ll say, oh yeah, these guys get it. These guys know what I want, what I want, what I need. And they’ll just start right into your sales funnel and check out.
[00:13:45] So Michael, any thoughts on those? I know we’ve talked about those ideas before about
[00:13:49] Michael: we have, I mean, it’s, they’re really great, great principles. I think that the, the first couple of principles remind me of, of Donald Miller’s book, building a StoryBrand, which I imagine, you know, very, very well based on the emphasis you put on that.
[00:14:00] And the subtitle of that book is clarify your message. So customers will listen again, the word clarity is turning up and also the listening thing, I guess comes ironically, you want somebody to listen. You probably need to demonstrate that you understand them first for them to even be willing to kind of open up to you.
[00:14:18] And I think joining the conversation occurred in the customer’s mind that you’ve just said is really subtle work and really important work. And I think to do that, you need to make the effort. And I think, you know, if you’re an Amazon seller, don’t be lazy about this. It’s it takes more work for you, but you can still do it, which is just an Amazon seller artificial distinction.
[00:14:34] Like if you sell on Amazon, mostly let’s say that, you need to make the effort, but you can literally talk to your customers. I think you should. I think most of us work on the basis of assumption and assumption is the mother of all F ups. As we say in the UK, it’s not a good starting point, actual conversation, actual text exchanges, chats, emails, whatever form of interaction, as well as observing buyer behavior.
[00:14:55] Not either or, but both on there. I think it’s so important. I think for me, it’s fast becoming an obsession that I say to my customers, look my clients, I should say, please, please, in however you do it in whatever form, whether your raw start up or really establish, please obsess about understanding your customer because that changes everything you say, show and do with them.
[00:15:16] Jason: Absolutely. Right. Okay. The next book on our list is, Alex Hormoz Z $100 million offers, how to make offers. So good people feel stupid saying no, that book is worth the read. I did it on audible. I’m going to get the paper back actually, because I want to mark it up and look at some of the additional ideas in it.
[00:15:35] Just visually it’s that good of a book, one concept in it. He says that really stands out to me is just, and I’ve said this before in prior podcasts, make a list of all your customer’s fears, uncertainty, and doubts their questions or confusions, and then simply reverse the idea and build it into your copy.
[00:15:54] So for example, The customer might say to you, I don’t have time. And your copywriting would be how our product saves you time. It’s just that simple. And it’s a brilliant copywriting methodology that allows you to have a lot of copy content that is clean, simple. And is, you know, it’s got a foundation that’s not just you blathering on about something.
[00:16:20] The foundation is you’re speaking into the mind of the customer. And I love his book for that reason. Any thoughts on that? And then we’ve got a whole list of books here. We’d probably want to recommend beyond that.
[00:16:30] Michael: Yeah, I think that’s really great. Two things that are great about it. One is clean, simple and obvious against the point of clarity is really important.
[00:16:37] But the other thing is, as you say, sort of blubbering on about the, the product, really one of the main jobs of sales copy is not to necessarily just build desire for the product and moving towards it, which, although that is important, it’s to remove the barriers that get it between the person and fulfilling their desire.
[00:16:54] In other words, fears really, or objections. And I think it’s really, really smart to build that into your copy, not to just tack it on as a sort of afterthought, because I guess a lot of products, if people are even on a product detail page, there’s an implication that at some level they probably do want the product.
[00:17:09] So are. Is bigger than we think is a bigger percentage of the job than we think to remove those barriers to buying. I think that is the majority of the work. And so to focus on that way, super smart. I’ve not read the book, but I’m definitely going to go get it now. Yeah. It’s
[00:17:23] Jason: definitely worth the read for sure.
[00:17:24] Okay. So there’s other books that are top of mind for me, as I made that list and poked a, you know, pulled a few threads out of those books, I realized, oh, I just forgot about a whole bunch of books that are really super powerful. And so I’ll just mention them and we put them on the show notes here as links.
[00:17:39] One that I would highly encourage people to track down is Eugene Schwartz is breakthrough advertising. This book is hard to get, cause it’s out of print and usually people put it on eBay or Amazon for like 50 bucks or whatever. So if you can get yourself a car. You should do that. I don’t believe it’s in Kindle or audible and it is very, very valuable.
[00:18:01] It’s worth going through repeatedly. I’ll just tell you that, like, for example, on page 51, there’s a list of 38 ways to strengthen your headline and it’s formula based, you know, it’s like, and so number one is measure the size of the claim 2000 filtered traps in a Viceroy, which is, I guess, a cigarette ad.
[00:18:26] This is old school. I am 61 pounds lighter, whoever heard of 17,000 balloons from a single plant. Those are measuring the size of the. So that’s one thing he just mentioned that’s on page. This book is literally like it is genius. And that third, that list of 3,800 by itself is worth getting the book.
[00:18:46] So that’s a Eugene Schwartz. Do you have that book, Michael? Is
[00:18:49] Michael: it even? I do not. I’ve come. Is he the guy who wrote the book that Tim Ferris recommended in the four work week or sort of, is it Schwartz? You wrote a think big, the magic of thinking big. Is that the same guy?
[00:19:01] Jason: Is it you gene Schwartz, maybe I’m looking on.
[00:19:07] Amazon as we speak. I dunno, it’s the same guy.
[00:19:10] Michael: Well, why do you do that? I’ve got a couple of other ones. I mean, one of them is my, one of my most obsessive, you know, recommendations, Perry, Marshall. I just, I, you, you’re going to thinking I’m a big fan of his thinking. He’s very analytical kind of nerd. So maybe it just resonates with me, but it’s called 80 20 sales and marketing.
[00:19:25] It’s a real, kind of a grab bag of sales and marketing thoughts, but under the umbrella of the 80 20 idea, and again, Because all of us are pretty much overwhelmed, a hundred percent of the time. If we’re, if we allow ourselves to be in the digital space where there’s so much information, do you techniques to absorb new platforms too much, too many metrics?
[00:19:43] I think it’s really, really good to go in with that mentality of, of simplifying there’s another book, which is really old school, Claude Hopkins scientific advertising, which I bought a while ago and then started reading. And it’s actually very engaging. I think it’s from the sixties or something. It’s kind of, I’ve been watching mad recently, which is all about the Madison avenue in the, in the sixties.
[00:20:00] And really, this is like the beginnings of the thinking where you turn from just kind of creating some stuff, as you say, and just Chuck it out there and hoping it works to the beginnings of mass, metrics gathering. And that way of thinking, you know, it kind of seems old fashioned to the idea that it’s new seems old fashioned and yet some of the thinking, and I think it’s quite thought provoking that it’s a reminder of nothing else that we need to kind of base what we’re doing on, on, you know, measurement, not just our fault.
[00:20:27] Jason: That’s funny, we’re on season three of bad men. We just started with
[00:20:31] Michael: exactly the same season. Yeah. It’s a lot of fun. Yeah, it is. Isn’t it? I mean, there’s something fascinating about that, that kind of, crazy testosterone fueled, sexist, crazy old school environment, which is very different to, to modern advertising, I think, but also some of the magic of advertising is captured in that.
[00:20:49] I think the fact that you can come up with a really amazing angle and the concept, the people that gets the big, the people who get the big bucks again to the talk of concepts, Don Draper, the hero of the show for laundry kind of troubled man buts and advertising genius. And the, his genius is kind of, I think it’s two things.
[00:21:05] It’s empathy. So understanding how the customer feels. And I think Seth Godin said, amateur marketers need to sell to scratch they’re in it because they understand they need themselves. But a professional marketer. Understands, what it feels like to be somebody else can put, sell somebody else’s shoes and Don Draper’s the, the master of that.
[00:21:22] And the other thing is conceptual clarity. For example, they’re setting their lipstick. And instead of saying, they’re going to offer a hundred different colors of lipstick. They kind of make the point that it’s about having one on each one that wants to make their own choice. And they’re going to mark their man and it’s this very powerful, image at the center of it.
[00:21:38] So I think it’s kind of fun and educational as well.
[00:21:41] Jason: It is. Okay. A couple other book recommendations on my side. Joe Sugarman has a great book. The ad week copywriting handbook. It is a classic go-to and he’s the famous infomercial marketer. And this book is very well constructed and laid out. As I flipped through it here, I’m looking at it.
[00:21:59] There are just tons and tons of highlights. And, I was using colored pencils, obviously at this point in my highlighting life. I don’t know why, but there’s all kinds of notes here. I’ve made. This is a goldmine book as well. And. Then the final one I’ll mention is, John Caples tested advertising methods.
[00:22:17] And so that’s a fantastic, resource as well. These are kind of the mad men era, guys, and, they, they, you know, most of their work was done in the newspaper print and magazine type stuff, but that’s a great book as well, for people who are looking for it. And I’m sure we’re forgetting ones, and, copywriters of note and a legend who are really effective, that you can go find their work and, and read from.
[00:22:39] But those are hopefully some good recommendations for your copywriting library. And I think it’s really powerful to start to build that out. Again, all of this goes to expanding your conversion rate and what that possibly could look like for you. Can you double it, you know, can you double it again and copywriting central to that idea?
[00:23:00] Yeah.
[00:23:01] Michael: The only person we’ve left out. He’s really famous. I think he’s Gary Halbert, isn’t it? Who I haven’t really read much of his stuff, but he’s famous for is kind of crazy slightly off of piece, you know, books and things. So I think he’d be worth reading. I think the boron letters is one of his famous ones.
[00:23:17] Isn’t there, I’m not really read a lot of his stuff, but I’ve always been kind of curious about his stuff. So I think that he would be, it’s kind of old school and yet, you know, very famous and kind of inspiring. So, wow. We’ve got quite a list of books for people to read today. Lots to take on board.
[00:23:32] Can you give a summary for people of, of maybe not just the books, but also that the sort of main takeaways from each book that you’ve recommended the sort of four core books?
[00:23:40] Jason: Yeah, absolutely. So copywriting is so central to conversion rate optimization. That it’s something that all of us should spend a good, solid amount of time learning and perfecting.
[00:23:50] The books we’ve mentioned include, influenced by Cialdini, and. Focuses on psychological triggers or influence triggers. The copywriter’s handbook by Bob Bly, his focus is on leader, comprehension and simplicity of messaging. My bookie commerce power. You can pick up for a grab bag of random tips and suggestions related to Shopify site and beyond the $100 million offer by Alex, her is a book that’s really, really, powerful.
[00:24:19] We didn’t mention Ray Edwards, how to write, copy that sells. That’s a great book. Eugene Schwartz, breakthrough advertising, Joe Sugarman, the Adweek copywriting handbook. John Caples tested advertising methods. Where’s your lists. Sorry. We lost it. Oh, Perry Marshall, 80 20 sales and marketing cloud Hopkins scientific advertising.
[00:24:37] Gary Halbert, the boron letters. John Caples tested advertising methods. If I didn’t say that one. So all of these are, are, books that will help you tune up your copywriting and get better at it over.
[00:24:50] Michael: So one thing that strikes you talking in simplicity and clarity of messaging, we have a lot of options for people and the confused mind does nothing.
[00:24:56] So if you had to pick one book or maybe two, where would you, people, where would you, if it’s somebody’s first book on copywriting, what would you suggest they buy or read?
[00:25:06] Jason: You know, it’s going to shock me to say this. I think maybe it’s just a recency effect, which is a thing, but it’s the Alex mosey book, $100 million offers.
[00:25:14] It’s so current and it’s so digital marketing focused and it is that good. I would, I would give that book to somebody as a starting point. And then I would say to them, if they really fascinated by the topic, then they can go deeper into these other, older resources. But that one is just current and relevant to digital age.
[00:25:39] And so, yeah, I think it’s a great resource. It’s that big? It’s that. I book for me, which is surprising. Yeah. Yeah.
[00:25:45] Michael: It kind of is surprising to me. And that’s a really, really powerful endorsement. You’ve you’ve definitely sold me on the idea of buying that book. Well, folks, hope you’ve enjoyed today’s episode.
[00:25:55] I certainly have. I’ve got lots of readings to do so don’t panic. If you need to buy one book, it’s the whole mosey book, Alex hormones, the a hundred million dollar offers as ever folks. Don’t forget if you’re listening to the show and enjoying it, which we hope you are. Don’t forget to subscribe on whatever podcast pay you on Spotify, apple, whatever it is.
[00:26:11] If you’re on apple podcast, don’t forget to give us a rating out of 1, 2, 3, 4, or even preferably five stars. You don’t have to write a review if you’re in a hurry. And of course last but not. Don’t forget. We’ve now launched season three with an exciting call-in show. It’s the commerce leader calling shots on the calling app, which is CA L I N as you’d expect.
[00:26:31] So if you just download that to your phone, I think it’s iPhone only at the moment as I understand it. And so if you’re an Android user go and pester them, and hopefully they will produce that Android version soon, and we’ve got really exciting conversations already kicked off as a four way conversational, basic format with Chris green, a very big name in the Amazon space for lots of different things.
[00:26:51] And Kyle Hemer, which is the, the other powerhouse thinker in, in, Jason. Jason’s winning on Shopify, which I know is going to be rebranded soon. So definitely worth checking out and you’ve got some really good guests coming up as well. You’ve got somebody you’ve got Kate coming in to talk about some retail ops things as well.
[00:27:07] So museum. Sorry,
[00:27:07] Jason: we were going to have cadence and we found out she has an Android phone and that Collin app only works for iPhone. So maybe TBD, future, a little bit of a wrinkle, but, you’re going to be traveling this Tuesday, so we’re going to wing it without you, as our recording occurs. But, yeah, so we’ll see how that plays out going forward, but we do help to have guests and even, you know, people who are listeners who want to call in and be, popped into the show on the app and have conversations with us.
[00:27:33] So in the future, we’re going to take that format and to fund directions.
[00:27:36] Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So folks, lots of places to connect with this, please do connect and, thank you so much for your time and attention. Attention is the scarce commodity these days. We’re really grateful to have it an honor to try and serve you the best we can, whether it’s on YouTube, Facebook, podcasts apps, or even on the call.
[00:27:54] And now we’re all over the place now. So thank you so much for listening and watching.
[00:27:58]