The E-commerce Leader

[00:00:00] Jason: if people wrote down their goals, they were more successful than the people who just had them in their mind.
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[00:01:06] Jason: so before I mention that one, I should just include a little more info here. When she set up this whole scientific research project, she let people pick their own goals. And so people, the goals were really, ranging all over the place from completing a project, increasing your income, increasing personal productivity, getting organized, enhancing your achievements or personal performance, improving your work life balance, reducing anxiety, learning new skills.
[00:01:31] You get the idea. Everybody just picked a goal that was random to them. So hopefully people understand this wasn’t just about like, how much money can you make or, like it wasn’t just a specific singular idea. But anyway, okay. So the third level in the pyramid of success, I guess you could call it the, a couple more notches up here was, people who wrote down their goal.
[00:01:52] So they had a goal, they wrote it down, and then they took the important step of creating, action, milestones or action commitments, like what actions could be taken to achieve this goal. And so that was another layer. Those people were more successful than people who just had a go written down.
[00:02:09] And of course they were more, both of those groups were more successful than the people who just had a goal in their mind. So this idea of formulating your own path or milestones or, success, steps was this, this third group. And, and they did better.
[00:02:23] Michael: In a way it sounds unsurprising.
[00:02:25] It’s like a lot of psychological experiments afterwards. You can say, oh, that’s obvious. But I think sometimes things that are actually validated, information just have a lot more value because you intuitively think something, but the fact that you think something doesn’t mean it’s always true.
[00:02:38] And this happens to be true. And I guess one of the reasons for that, by the way, I would just reflect that if you are trying to convince anyone, whether it be your wife or husband, if you’re about to start a business or spend more time on even more of a business or for that matter of charity, or whether you’re trying to get investments of hundreds of thousands or millions from investors, or whether you’re trying to get a bank loan, having written down paths to goals is seriously important.
[00:03:03] And that sounds really obvious, but I see so often that. And we could do a much better, this is one of the things in 2023 I really wanna work on at the Mastermind for their sake more than mine. It’s gonna make more work for me. Which is better goal clarity and then forcing people to go, how are you going to achieve that?
[00:03:18] Like people say, I wanna double my revenue next year. My questions always why I normally, the answer is cause I want to get in the busi business more value, in which case I try to persuade them to have a profit target . That’s the first question. And then, okay, yeah, how are you gonna do that? How many products are you gonna launch?
[00:03:33] How much money do you have? And then it forces you to ask a bunch of other questions like, how much money do you need for that? Do you have that money? Do you have the resources? And so forth. So I think it starts to force you down into a lot of detail very quickly once you look at action stats. So I guess that’s my thesis of why it would work better.
[00:03:49] But I certainly think it’s important as a communication tool with other people to have those realities built in. I
[00:03:55] Jason: think. I think there’s another reason why the milestones. Or action steps is value valuable? And that’s vis visualization. I think a lot of high performance people actually, there’s a whole, body of work around this that, like what do they do to prepare?
[00:04:13] And a lot of what they do to prepare is visualize themselves winning or achieving or, and I don’t know if this is true, Michael, and like the music world, like with orchestra and performance art and stuff like that. But I think a lot of it is like the mental, are you thinking through exactly what it looks like?
[00:04:30] And I know, for example, for my public speaking, when I’ve spoken at conferences or at churches or that kind of thing, if I can take the time ahead of time to literally put my mind in the place and say the words in my. That I want to say and visualize it as closely to real as possible. It has a dramatic effect on how I feel and how I achieve.
[00:04:54] And so I think the milestones really writing them down make you visualize, where would I be and what would I be doing? What does it look like to succeed at this goal? And it makes it so much more real in terms of your ability to understand how am I gonna get this done? So anyway, I think that’s a key part of it.
[00:05:13] I agree.
[00:05:13] Michael: Actually it’s weird to hear you saying that and the fact I haven’t really applied that to business in anything like the level I should have cuz I have so much experience with that being true in music. So the fascinating thing was my background, my sort of passion as well, and a lot of training from some world class people, to be honest, in, in conducting, it’s all in your head.
[00:05:31] There is no, you don’t make any sound. So if I’m playing the piano, which I do more these days, you gotta get your fingers to behave. If you’re conducting, the main thing you bring in fact is a very clear mental picture. In this case. It’s a sound picture, if you like, of what you want the end results to sound like.
[00:05:46] And then when you are in the rehearsal, you gotta, put the bass on down and listen to the sound. You get back and think, is that actually what I wanted or is it need improving? And in what particular ways? So I find a very practical example of what you say being absolutely true. Because if you dunno what you want, how are you gonna even correct course, you just say, yeah, fine, see you later.
[00:06:05] Jason: I think we could. Tweak her model a little bit and say that your action steps could be crafted with three or four layers of what you might call a modality. So what does it sound like when you’re successful would be one layer. What does it visually look like when you’re successful? What does it emotionally feel like, when you achieve these goals?
[00:06:33] Adding that level of spec specificity to these milestone stages, I think that’s really interesting. Visualization technique. It’s what does it taste like? , to hit a home run, taste it or to, I like
[00:06:45] Michael: that. And what this reminds you of is actually doing a really great job of selling yourself into your own vision.
[00:06:52] Not falling into self delusion. That’s a different thing. But, All the things you’re saying sound like the classic, video pitch for somebody to probably spend one, possibly on. Why is the on some course that, purports to make you rich and good looking and it financially independent in one year, on Amazon or using Shopify or whatever else it may be in three years time.
[00:07:11] And, the emotion and sound and feelings that those things evoke are very powerful. And of course, if you’re trying to sell something, that’s one thing, but if you’re trying to sell yourself on your own, I dunno about you, I don’t tend to apply that level of emotion and passion to it.
[00:07:25] So you’re absolutely right. There’s a gulf between the sort of. Rather dry, theoretical written plan and then feeling passionate about it and imagining it. So you are right. This is really important. This is something I’m gonna need to figure out for myself actually, how to inject that in real life, what do you do to get excited?
[00:07:41] But you obviously, quite excited about your 2023 planning, which is a great relationship to have a lot of people grown about planning that I know in e-commerce. But how do you get yourself excited about your plans? What’s your method?
[00:07:53] Jason: I’m pretty much a ready, fire, aim kind of guy, so I’m all going to a stop anyway.
[00:08:00] So I think the exercise associated with what we’ve been talking about last podcast in this podcast is actually focusing my mind and energy and effort and not allowing it to be, diffused. And so to me it’s really more about getting clarity. And, a singular focus on, a thing. Then it is motivating myself to take action.
[00:08:24] That’s, I don’t have a problem executing. I have a problem executing the right thing in the right way at the right time with thoughtfulness. And so to me that’s why these milestone pieces are so important. And the last podcast recording we just did was so important with the Eki guy framework, which is, what am I leaning the ladder?
[00:08:43] Which wall am I leaning the ladder against to use that metaphor? Am I, climbing up the ladder and it’s leaning against the wrong, wall? And so to me, that’s why I really have to think through, okay, if I achieve this milestone number three, am I gonna be happy? Is it gonna lead me to a happy place where I’m really passion?
[00:09:03] So anyway, so I think that’s where I get to in, in my thinking on this stuff. Yeah.
[00:09:07] Michael: Yeah, that’s really good. I like that a lot. And if I achieve milestone three, am I gonna be happy? And that’s a really simple question, but having any kind of milestones puts you ahead of the game, I think already.
[00:09:18] Most people just do stuff because it’s the next thing without really thinking, is this a milestone going somewhere? I want to go , where the heck is this going anyway? Brilliant. Okay, so that’s level three. So level four, the next level, almost the best, but not quite. What’s the next level up?
[00:09:34] Jason: It’s so funny, I’m gonna say this and you’re gonna be like, oh, that’s so obvious. But right now in our minds, we couldn’t say what it is. Like we can’t articulate the next step and her this lady’s research. But once I mention this, you’ll be like, oh, that, that makes perfect sense. So here it is.
[00:09:47] Number four is you have a goal, you have it written down, you have your action steps or your milestones documented, and then you take the additional step to. Send it or include it in conversation to a friend. So the accountability of having someone else become aware of your goal, like that public declaration to a friend, Hey, this is my goal for the year, or, whatever it is.
[00:10:15] That level, those people were more successful than people who just had the goal, had written it down and had created milestones or action steps. So adding that level of a, person who will hold you accountable, made you even more likely to achieve the, the goal. So there you have it. That’s the next layer of success.
[00:10:35] And there’s still one more beyond this, but, but that’s an important one.
[00:10:39] Michael: Yeah, I think it is. I think the, the main thing that strikes me is involving other people. I think what’s interesting about that, it’s probably not about the other people, it’s how it changes your own perception about your own statements, isn’t it?
[00:10:50] Cause as soon as you say something to somebody else, there’s a social dynamic involved, which I always find fascinating. So really, the other person’s just, a mirror or an adjunct to our own processes, really. And yet it’s hard to fake that. I think in the end, interaction with humans is really important.
[00:11:04] So tell me a little bit about this. What’s your personal experience of doing this and how does this work for you in your real life? And I’m happy to tell you about mine as well, but,
[00:11:11] Jason: Yeah. I think that this, level of goal achievement gets into this whole space of having a coach or a, a peer or a mastermind group.
[00:11:21] It, it creates your, the social. Componentry of your goal achievement and I think that’s really that’s the, a breakthrough level, is that okay, I’ve got a social community and I think that was Napoleon Hill’s original, this mastermind group idea was so revolutionary when he documented it.
[00:11:38] There’s always been groups like that. You think of King Arthur and the Knight of the Round Table, what were they doing? I’m sure they had some goals they were getting after, if that was even a real group, or is that all like a, I dunno, story, is that a real thing? Really a King Arthur on the round table?
[00:11:52] That’s
[00:11:53] Michael: quite a question. There was definitely King Arthur Saxon King in about the six hundreds. I believe he had nights, because that was a standard sort of thing in the futile society at the time. Now did they have a round table? Was that actually round? I don’t know. But I guess their quest was the holy grail quest.
[00:12:08] So was like religion blended with the sort of fighting and, and getting something of perceived high value. So I guess that they strong motivation that, even at, in the half existed in the real form that people say you can see they’d be very highly motivated, right?
[00:12:22] Because they’d have super clear goal that was tied in their view of the world and universe being, about God and Jesus and . So religion ties in very heavily with these things, right? Sure. In so going there. That’s very interesting cuz when I was creating the, the. What do you call it?
[00:12:37] The logo and the whole concept for the 10 K electro Mastermind when I was refining it five years ago. , we referenced the Knight, the Ran, and I said to my designer, I want a reference, a sort of a bleak reference to that without it being ridiculous. . so that image is actually pretty, central to me, about the group and how we operate.
[00:12:52] And actually, I wanna dig a bit deeper into that whole thing. So interesting you mentioned the nights at the round table. I’ve just gotta relate one, one thing, which I’ve found that personally, writing action steps and sending ’em to somebody, has been. Real for me, getting stuff done, mostly when I know I’m gonna see them again and they’re gonna actually look at the facts and go, have you achieved it?
[00:13:11] And weirdly enough, the days before that meeting, when a lot of stuff happens because there’s a social mixture of, avoiding shame and avoiding, looking like you’re just making stuff up and being a, a BS artist and whatever, things like that. So weirdly enough for me being a person who is a towards motivated person, but not as much as a classic entrepreneur, perhaps less than you, Jason, and on the other hand, part of me is very artistic type, very fearful of criticism and very perfectionist.
[00:13:38] I find that there’s a line between that using other people can really help me break through the perfections and use that to get me to do stuff as opposed to block me from doing stuff.
[00:13:46] Jason: I think that’s the interesting piece that in the performing arts, the performance, Is a proxy for that social inclusion, isn’t it?
[00:13:56] It’s I’m gonna play a song. Okay, Tuesday night at 7:00 PM people are showing up. Is that’s your, that’s the inclusion of the social in the, for performance art stuff. And I think there is huge power in that. But you mentioned the setup. There was your, in your commentary about the emotional commitment you get when you know people are gonna hold you accountable.
[00:14:17] That leads into the fifth layer, that the peak of performance pyramid in this lady’s research project was this highest ideal for goals achievement was it’s a written goal. Action steps and milestones are created. You’ve sent it to a friend, and then the highest level is you send progress reports.
[00:14:41] To your friend. And so that whole idea of accountability to performance that is scientifically based on her research study, which was comprehensive, that is the highest way in which to achieve a goal, statistically have the goal, have it written down, have milestones that you’ve, articulated, send it to a friend.
[00:15:02] And with weekly progress reports going forward towards your achievement, if you do those things, you have the highest likelihood, probability of achieving the goal. And yeah, that’s, it’s really interesting, that kind of accountability to the ongoing, success or, I guess you could say steps towards, your goal.
[00:15:20] Being a social construct and accountability, is a key part of it. I think that’s really interesting, thing to think about.
[00:15:27] Michael: So I’ve got two questions then, that, that intrigue me. One is the most unsurprising perhaps is the weekly idea. I found that weekly is a good rhythm for coaching clients.
[00:15:35] Sometimes people say, can we do more often? And I say, you’re not gonna get the work done in between . And sometimes I say, can we do, twice a month sometimes to save money? And I say, you can. I’ve tried that many times. My experience is you just don’t get enough intensity to break through. So there’s something about weekly that’s a good rhythm.
[00:15:51] Have you found that to be true for yourself in real life? Is that actually, can it be different rather than weekly?
[00:15:58] Jason: Oh, I think it depends on what you’re doing. I think the key question is right though that you ask, which is what’s your achievement interval? And so is your, if your achievement interval can.
[00:16:07] Like what body work needs to be done between the accountability, conversations, you can get in a very fast rhythm with people. For example, if you’re doing things like writing or a coding or things where you have to have almost like a Pomodoro technique, 25 minute clock.
[00:16:25] If you’re in sync with a group of people and you say, Hey, every 25 minutes I’m gonna give you what I just created, you can get a lot done. You can move really fast now with creating products on selling them on Amazon or your own Shopify site. Yeah. A weekly coaching meeting makes sense cuz you just have to have time to execute on the associated activities.
[00:16:45] And there’s a latency and feedback in terms of, when you set stuff up and how it can go live or whatever. But I do think that’s a vital question is like, what is that the speed with which you can. And interact. But it’s pretty powerful when you think about the velocity with which you can do, progress reporting and how fast you can get at it.
[00:17:06] For example, I work with a team of, VAs in the Philippines and, it’s a really awesome rhythm to be in to, in the evening time, have tasks assigned to them, and then in the morning wake up and their ta those tasks are done. And on the flip side of that coin, I have activities that I’m supposed to do during my daytime that then they’ll be expecting me to deliver on so they can do their next link in the chain.
[00:17:34] It actually gets very interesting when you get in sync with people on the other side of the planet to do work because you can get stuff done insanely quickly when you’ve got a 24 7, not really seven days a week, but, five days a week, but 24 hour, Shift in mind, back and forth.
[00:17:50] So anyway, I do think that accountability piece and the progress, is vital and I would say the velocity with which you can get into that loop with people can really be interesting in terms of what outcomes can be achieved.
[00:18:03] Michael: Yeah. Nicely put on, there’s lots of good concepts there. So the versus sort of achievement intervals are really, Concept to play with.
[00:18:10] So for writing, it might be an hour for my mastermind guys, I find that this is another thing I really wanna tighten up on, because I think when they come in, members say, oh, I wanna be held accountable. And then in real life they want to wiggle out of it, which is interesting. Like we all have these two sides.
[00:18:26] So the employee, and it is I want do as few hours as possible. And then what? Next? Watch Netflix all night. And then there’s entrepreneur is I I wanna build a, 10 million, $20 million business next, lots of money. And of course , this is real life. But I find that. That’s quite often when I ask people who are super high achievers, like people are building towards an eight figure business very soon and a big exit in the mastermind.
[00:18:47] If I say, what do you want to do in the next goal? For the next month or two months, it’s too short a time period. They don’t know, whereas they know what they wanna do of their next year. It’s weird that interval of achievement questions is very interesting. It can vary from an hour to a year as the minimum viable interval.
[00:19:01] And there’s somewhere in between that I think I’m missing with a mastermind.
[00:19:04] Jason: Yeah, I think that’s why the milestones are important because, I think of Elon Musk, everyone thinks of Elon Musk for all their examples of everything these days. But, you think about his, like his SpaceX achievements.
[00:19:17] They’re like, okay, we wanna go to Mars. Okay to go to Mars. What are the milestones? And then he, but then he breaks the milestones down and then he’s got these really futuristic long-term goals. But actually they’re achievement. Towards the micro steps. The little kind of incrementals is radically fast, and they’re, if I watch some YouTube channels that document all of the SpaceX work related to the Starship, which is their big giant rocket, they’re trying to build that quickly, reusable, basically like a Boeing 7 47 for space ships.
[00:19:50] And, you watch the channel and there’s amazing amounts of work being done every day, but the long term goal is obviously, inhabit Mars or whatever. So I think that’s the interesting twist is like what are the milestones that are relevant on the journey and how quickly can those be, worked on and then accountability documented and that, that feedback loop of progress.
[00:20:14] So I guess that’s how I look at it, is the, big giant goal and then the mi minor smaller goals that break it down into.
[00:20:22] Michael: Wow. So I I guess next to going to Mars, everything looks tiny, but just my question. This next question is gonna sound very mundane in that context, but nevertheless, actually getting stuff done.
[00:20:32] So Gail’s Ma Gail Matthew’s actual study, you say that she, got people to send stuff to their friend weekly with progress reporting. So was it literally a friend rather than any kind of authority figure, like a sort of teacher or a coach or anything else? Was that what she was doing? Okay. And what’s your view on Yeah, she had ’em just,
[00:20:50] Jason: she had to just do it to a supportive friend is what they said in the literature.
[00:20:55] So it wasn’t like, get yourself the world famous coach of whatever you’re trying to achieve. There wasn’t a, a layer like that. I would imagine though, and this gets back to a story that you might like, I’ve told it before, was when I was trying to learn to play the. In high school, I know I’ve told you this story before, you probably remember it, but I went to the local music store, Pete’s Music, and got a guitar instructor.
[00:21:18] My friend at the high school, Norman Hetzel, had his parents driving to San Francisco because a student of Christopher Paring, which was a student of Segovia, was in San Francisco. That’s two and a half hours away from us, and they drove every Saturday for his music lessons. And six months later he was playing classical music in a performance at our high school.
[00:21:39] And I was still trying to learn the difference between a G and a C, on the fret board of a guitar. And seeking out the highest performance coach on the internet or in the world, and then, being accountable to that person, I would imagine would radically increase your, achievement velocity.
[00:21:59] Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. And I guess, which it sounds very self-serving, but I guess we, that brings us really to the point of why we’ve ended up coaching, but because it works, I was just looking back to some statistics a while ago for people in the beginning of the Amazon journey, which I don’t tend to work with anymore because I feel like the private label business model has shifted in the level of money you need to go into it.
[00:22:18] So I wouldn’t advise it for most people at early stages unless they’ve already got some existing experience and or existing business or they’re very good at production or some starting point. But anyway, all of which to say, I used to run a mastermind for people, which I actually shut down. It was like a gym.
[00:22:32] It was in a gym ownership model where nobody ever turns up at the gym and it’s profitable with depressing. So I just shut it down cause I felt I wasn’t adding value to people’s lives. , maybe that was foolish, but, cuz hardly anyone did anything. And then versus the one to one coaching clients that I had, some of the whom in the same co cohort, the majority of whom actually launched some kind of product on Amazon, some went on to do extremely well, some less well.
[00:22:52] That was the usual spread. . . But actually the difference was absolutely massive. So the people with the coach, did, I can’t remember what the difference was, like five to 10 x more in terms of achievements and it was the same person running the situation. So the difference wasn’t the person, it was me running both.
[00:23:06] It was the coach versus having a slightly broader, vague kind of idea of a mastermind, which was less accountability built in. And of course what I want to do now is to take the Pancake Collector Mastermind, put it on steroids, and try and combine the best of both really. So that’s my aim next.
[00:23:20] Jason: Yeah. Yeah. Love it.
[00:23:22] Michael: So look, talking of coaches, obviously you, you help a lot of people with their e-commerce, strategies and coaching them and their businesses. Just briefly run down how you help people.
[00:23:31] Jason: Yeah. Kyle and i’s, practice started in 2016. He focuses on Amazon execution and I focus on Shopify execution and it’s an honor to be able to work with people, one on one.
[00:23:42] We do that in, actual zoom meetings, one on one weekly tons of accountability and tons of milestones and action steps that are clear and documented. And it’s a blast to be able to work with people in that way. And, it’s what we do day in and day out and it’s really enjoyable and it’s fun to be able to work with people over the years.
[00:24:01] We set our program up as a six month, program interval, but we’ve worked with people for years now and seeing their transformation from. Frustration and no sales on Shopify, for example, to crushing it and, having a massive pillar in their business, be their direct to consumer Shopify sales.
[00:24:20] That’s just fun. And it’s a interesting, it’s always intriguing and the problems are always, fascinating. So I love being the accountability partner to e-commerce sellers. And, we, you can find out more about how we do [email protected] and there’s an application form. We don’t work with people who are, just starting out.
[00:24:40] We work with people who have proven products and sales velocity and, we feel like those are the folks we can add the most value to. And yeah, that’s, about what we.
[00:24:50] Michael: Oh, obviously as I’ve mentioned, I’ve been running the 10 K collect, we’ve been doing it for five and a bit years now, since September, 2017.
[00:24:57] And likewise, we’ve had some people in there for, I dunno, four years in some cases. So yet you get to see a bit of an architect in people’s journeys and the peaks and troughs and, there’s a lot to be learned from that. And apart from that, you just get this great relationship where you know people so well.
[00:25:10] Part of the pleasure, as you say. If anyone wants to check that out, it’s really for British based, or Europe based entrepreneurs. We have always got a smattering of people from Europe, www.theamazonmastermind.com. Amazon still hasn’t taken it down. So I’ll keep using that URL as long as I can and that is also for people who’ve got an established business.
[00:25:27] There’s doing half a million a year at upwards basically. Yeah. Great stuff. And I guess it sounds a bit self-serving to put ourselves at the pyramid of this Gail Matthews thing that the tooth be told, I think we both experienced in our own lives the power of having accountability with somebody who’s actually specifically your coach.
[00:25:43] But nevertheless, let’s go back over the document cause you just summarize those levels of breakthrough of actually getting stuff done that Gail Matthews came up with and that you documented in your book. Yeah.
[00:25:53] Jason: Let me cover the five levels and then I wanna just point out a few. Reasons or breakthrough ideas, before we wrap up too.
[00:26:02] So the five levels are, having a goal in your mind, and then level two is having that goal and writing it down. Level three is having the goal, writing it down and creating action steps or, milestones. Number four is having the goal, writing it down, having action steps, and then sending it to, a supportive friend, having social accountability and the highest level of achievement.
[00:26:26] The thing that works the very best in her big research project was having the goal, writing it down, creating the milestones, sending it to your friend, and then sending them weekly, progress reports. So that’s the summation of her work. And, but before we wrap up, let me just mention, the four things that I think are really vital that you can pull out of this, and we maybe talk about these for a few minutes.
[00:26:48] The the first one is, the real breakthrough level is writing things down. And we all have heard this a million times, you want to take notes. You wanna have a journal, you wanna be journaling, thinking through things and writing things down as a first breakthrough level or trigger.
[00:27:01] The second breakthrough trigger is, visualization of the action steps. Having the milestones, that you clear on in your mind. The third level of breakthrough is social accountability, and having people include in the process. And then the fifth level of, in my mind is the social accountability, but the commitment and consistency to do the weekly progress, reports.
[00:27:23] And so to just look at it what, as a, as an actions trigger for success, what list, is included. I think that’s an interesting, way to look.
[00:27:32] Michael: Yeah. What’s interesting to me is the most hidden one of these, if you like, as you pointed out to me today, I think I’m gonna have to go and think about this is the visualization of the action steps.
[00:27:43] Because I think writing things down has, can work in two directions I guess. One is you imagine something and then you write down what you’ve imagined. And the other one is you write something rather dry down and then you go away and imagine what that looks, feels, smells, taste if you like. And actually I think, that’s really important because I think if it stays very dry, it starts to be very academic exercise.
[00:28:02] And we’ve all done, you did an mba, we’ve all done stuff at university or in school or whatever, high school, if you didn’t go to university or wherever it is in corporate life. And there’s enough of us being used to doing stuff for the sake of it, ticking a box. And the dangers for an entrepreneur, of course that doesn’t do anything.
[00:28:19] You’re not gonna get paid a penny for ticking some kind of box. So I think it has to be real, however that is for you personally. So I think. I would link. I don’t think it matters whether you write stuff down and then imagine it or imagine stuff and then write it down, but I think that link needs to be there and you are the person who pointed that out today.
[00:28:33] So I just wanted to underscore that.
[00:28:35] Jason: Yeah. Great stuff, man. As always is great conversation. Love talking about this. I think we both are working on this personally in terms of our own reflections and, so be interesting to see how this plays out for us.
[00:28:48] Michael: Absolutely. Great content, man. Thank you so much for, for talking that through.
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