The E-commerce Leader

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[00:00:00] JM: and the experiences, at least in my life, the times that I look back on the, like, you know, thinking of sports, the coaches that I had who held us to the highest standard, who made us work the hardest we possibly could. I look back with the most fondness in terms of those. Phases of my life
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[00:01:18] JM: E-commerce leadership is a challenge just as leading any organization is. And in this episode we’re gonna ask four hard questions that we hope will have you stopping and thinking and recommitting to your company. Michael, how’s that sound to you?
[00:01:40] MV: It sounds, uh, kind of impressive but scary. I can tell you’ve been to church today. It feels a bit like, you know, am I gonna commit my my life to a certain person? Um, I, I. It’s very, it’s very good. It’s, it’s very Amer in the traditions of American, you know, uh, Jim Rhone style, uh, thought leadership. So I like it.
[00:01:55] And I’m slightly scared because you said are you gonna be ? You said to me, Mike, before we come on, Micah, you ready to be truthful now? I’m like, okay, that sounds scary, but I think we am, we are, we are ready to do it. And I think, yeah, asking hard questions and being willing to be truthful is a very good starting point for making stuff better.
[00:02:10] Right? So it’s a good.
[00:02:11] JM: Sure.
[00:02:12] MV: Okay, well look you, you better ask me the first hard question then, and I’ll try and answer it and then I expect the same
[00:02:19] JM: All right. And then we’ve got four here, and then maybe you can reciprocate. You asked me the next one. So the first question is, what’s the big why behind your work? Why are you truly showing up in business and trying to achieve something through your, your company, what is that?
[00:02:39] MV: that’s a great question. Um, For me personally, I, I think I’m not really showing up in business, uh, enough. I haven’t been because my why hasn’t been. Hasn’t been aligned with who I am. Really. I think like, uh, I started off in, in business in order to sort of escape from the data, which isn’t away from idea.
[00:02:54] And that kind of worked. But I, I don’t think that’s really a towards goal. It’s just a kind of, don’t want this, this must be better because the grass is always greener on the other side. Right. And it turns out obviously, No it isn’t. It’s very funny to me, for example, that the world and his friend advertised, uh, uh, digital type businesses work from home as a great virtue.
[00:03:12] And then as soon as we went into lockdown, every single journalist in the world seemed to spend their life talking about how terrible it was to be working from home. So that’s a very funny thing that, you know, obviously there, the, the truth is that there are pros and cons. I personally prefer to have the control over my time, so I’m happy with it, but it’s not easy.
[00:03:27] You’ve gotta work it out. For example, I, I haven’t left the house today. I’m gonna have to make an effort to go for a walk around the block with my wife, cuz I don’t need to, if I’ll. Um, so that was, so my why was a kind of a negative initially, and I’ve kind of been working towards the positive. And what I’m finding is giving me more joy as something I need to dig into, which is accepting the fact that, that I, I seem to work best when I’m helping other people with their businesses more than, you know, working on building something big myself.
[00:03:50] And that’s, um, , it feels kind of half fraudulent to say that it half feels like, why am I not following this big path that I’m supposed to have to build some multimillion dollar business? But the truth is I enjoy getting in there and sort of, you know, being the mechanic and, and look at the nuts and bolts in the business and go, let’s show me your p l.
[00:04:07] Okay, we need to sort this out. This one means we’ve gotta do that means, you know, and just making the whole thing hum. That’s what gives me joy. So I feel like I’m gradually realigning my business to be true to myself. So there.
[00:04:18] JM: to, to, to have it emphasize on your personal satisfaction and your joy, why does that make you feel like wrong or
[00:04:24] MV: Well, it’s a, it’s a good question in itself, I guess because, you know, it, the, I suppose we accept a certain kind of, this is what business success looks like
[00:04:33] JM: Mm-hmm.
[00:04:34] MV: the people in our industry, and that’s reasonable to start. But I guess then you’ve gotta go, well, is it really me? Is it really my strength?
[00:04:40] And, you know, so, Yeah. B, being a consultant and owning it, you know, it’s kind of almost the phrase that a lot of business owners look down on that I feel like actually be really good at the job, and you get in there and you really, really help people and you enjoy it then actually, that’s my thing. So there you go.
[00:04:56] So that’s, it’s kind of shifting. That’s my big why. It’s, it’s kind of shifted towards who I really actually am rather than what I think I should be.
[00:05:03] JM: Yeah. And, and so it’s, it was originally away from having your schedule dictated to you, and that was the original driver of why you started, but now it’s shifting towards finding your own joy and satisfaction in the technical work.
[00:05:16] MV: Yeah, exactly, and, and the joy is not necessarily working on one business all the time and owning it. It’s working on different businesses, but applying similar processes, which I wanna get better and better at. To optimize those. Um, it’s a little bit like, um, it reminds me actually of my conducting work.
[00:05:32] Like I didn’t necessarily wanna compose a whole symphony, cuz that’s years and years of graft and that wasn’t my bag, but kind. Somebody turns up with an existing thing and the orchestra’s playing a mess. I can listen and diagnose what’s going on. Say this needs sorting, this needs sorting out. And it’s the process of making it better.
[00:05:46] That interests me. By the time I got to the concerts, I’m like, yeah, this is done now. You know, I’m baked. This is baked. I want the next one. So maybe that’s my nature, maybe. So that’s who I am.
[00:05:55] JM: ex, you’re the conductor.
[00:05:57] MV: I’m the guy who turns up and sorts out the mess and then moves on to the next one, . You know, I guess, uh, that seems to be what gives me joy, you know?
[00:06:03] JM: literal metaphor for, from your, you know, from your life that’s coming forth in your business. That’s really, really cool.
[00:06:10] MV: Seems to be So, what, what’s your big why behind your work? I mean, obviously you’ve got a huge amount of whys floating around is the, you know, your faith. There’s a sort of belief in social health is obviously more commercial aspects, but what, what’s the truth behind your big way?
[00:06:25] JM: Well, it’s interesting, you know, we started on this journey a long time ago. Uh, as I look back on it, we were always, well, you still are involved in nonprofit, uh, leadership and have our charity, but the, uh, but the work aspects that resonated with me the most, the story that I tell people and I tell myself is that, um, when we were basically really struggling financially, I heard about a guy making a thousand dollars a day on the.
[00:06:50] That was in 1998. And I guess I, that was like a North star in a way that just, it, it seemed like if it, if there was a path there, I didn’t know how to, I didn’t know how to get on the path or, or follow the path. There was no path really. There was just this idea. And, um, and that has really, I guess, um, guided for a long time.
[00:07:18] And we got there and, and eventually through eBay sales or originally then through our own website, we started to put together the pieces of it. And so the question is what what was that that was attracting me? What, what was it the thousand dollars a day that was so appealing? And I think it was probably ha having to do at the time, and still I would say is still true, is something about security.
[00:07:45] Something about income security, job security, I guess you could say I was the human resources person for a long time in big charity. I would literally orchestrate people’s, um, lay the layoffs and firings and, you know, terminations. And, um, and I think maybe have ptsd, T S D from doing that or something, you know, where it’s like,
[00:08:04] MV: Imagine that. Yeah.
[00:08:05] JM: never ever want to be on the other end of that because it just makes you realize like, I guess maybe it’ll be like being an ambulance driver or something, or being like a.
[00:08:14] A doctor er person just makes you realize like, life is so fleeting. But in my case it was like, your job is so fleeting. You know, your, what you think is secure. Now many people have awesome careers that last their whole life through, but you know, I literally like what catches my attention was like two weeks ago, three weeks ago, all these posts on LinkedIn.
[00:08:33] I don’t know if you saw them or like, hi, I’m Becky. I just. Exited out of the Google campus. Here’s my badge picture. I worked here for 16 years. I really have no idea what I’m gonna do. Or, hi, I worked at Micro or Microsoft or Amazon, all these people who got laid off and they were totally blindsided and I just, it brought it all back to me.
[00:08:52] I was like, oh dang. You know, that is just so gut wrenching and I hated every part of it. I hated being a hatchet man. And I, you know, I didn’t want to, that was a horrible job. And then you feel bad for them. And so I just, I, I felt like that whole [00:09:10] corporatist system, I guess in a way was something I was not, uh, you know, I just, I was, I guess I was moving away from it, like, as you said, you know, what am I moving away from and what am I moving towards?
[00:09:22] MV: That’s so interesting. I mean, there’s some, I guess the, the thing that resonates for me from what you just said is that corporate system, I mean, for me it was schools, so I’m not. Anti-education. My, my mom and my grandmother as a teacher. Some part of me is a, definitely a teacher, but, but the environment for that that I love is when I can create somewhere where everyone’s on it and, You know, something like finance, it’s pretty nerdy compared to, you know, music theory or whatever it is.
[00:09:48] I mean, I like sort of complex structures like teaching jazz harmony back in the, the day for pian. And, uh, you know, most people don’t really care about it. And your average school is a, like a prison to me, , it’s like a bunch of people kept under control for social reasons and like by accident, a bit of learning happens if you’re unlucky.
[00:10:04] Yeah. So there’s, there’s something that talks about certain corporate structures with certain people, right. So yeah, it’s interesting you say that. . I guess that was one of my motivations, one of the things I was getting away from. Now I think about it.
[00:10:15] JM: Well, I guess those,
[00:10:15] MV: yeah.
[00:10:16] JM: oh, I was just gonna say, yeah, as they say, your people are really primarily drawn to, you know, two things. Avoidance of pain. and the desire, pleasure. You know, and I, I guess as I look back, that thousand dollars a day dream on the internet was really about avoiding the pain of ever having to, you know, say, oh, my income’s totally gone.
[00:10:38] You know, I, I don’t have any money now cuz my job, my, I just got, you know, fired or whatever. Um,
[00:10:44] MV: Yeah,
[00:10:45] JM: even though it sounds like a thousand dollars a day on the internet would logically sound like Avaris or you know, kind of the dream of, you know, the money. It really, for me, I think, wasn’t so much about that.
[00:10:56] So
[00:10:57] MV: that’s very interesting. I mean, I,
[00:10:59] JM: hard question, buddy.
[00:11:00] MV: yeah, the, the irony of what you’re saying, of course, is that you swapped, um, a job where you are either gonna have, um, you know, all of your income or it’s turned off to nothing. as it were when you’re kicked out, um, to a situation which is statistically, uh, quite tough.
[00:11:13] I mean, small business startups, you know, and, and survival rates statistically aren’t great, are they? So it was funny that you didn’t perceive that as a higher risk somehow, I guess,
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[00:12:11] JM: Well, what I executed on was five years of moonlighting. You know, I mean, we, so I kind of incrementally got towards something where I, I didn’t ever take any risk. Actually, the first year we were online sellers, we made $12,000 and really no profit. . The second year we made $12,000 and really no profit. So, you know, it wasn’t, uh, you know, just on a whim and we certainly didn’t take any big risks in it.
[00:12:35] It was just eBay, uh, sales at first and, you know, kind of went from there. So, but you’re right, it’s definitely a high risk, uh, you know, relatively speaking or on the average, you know,
[00:12:46] MV: Excellent. Well, I’m gonna ask you the next question that, no, you wrote this. Just to be clear about who came up with this. Um, sorry, , I’ll ask you the next question cuz um, this is always an interesting one. So question number two by Jason Miles to Jason Miles is who is holding you personally accountable if anyone to showing up and executing bus you can each day, for example, spouse, et cetera.
[00:13:08] So who’s that for you?
[00:13:09] JM: Uh, boy, that’s a hard question. Be completely honest. . I would say that I don’t have enough accountability structure in my life right now as it relates to our business. I would say that on the charity that we lead, I do, but on the business we don’t have, you know, dead. And, you know, it’s, I, I guess I, I would say there’s, um, maybe to a degree a, a comfort.
[00:13:39] A level of comfort, and that means maybe a, a degree of ability to coast. And I, I’m a, I asked this question, I put it on the paper that today for us to talk about, because I’ve been reflecting on such things, you know, um, is there somebody saying you have to execute, you have to make this happen. Um, and you know, the reality is, uh, a lot of us, if we get to where we want to be, we can kind of, um, not push so,
[00:14:04] And so I think the real leadership question for anybody who’s leading your household or your company or a group is, you know, how do you get the best out of every single person involved in the enterprise, including yourself? And that can be a tough thing for the leader, because the leader generally is the one who’s in the position to, you know, not be.
[00:14:29] Such high account. Now, you know, if you’re starting a, a tech startup and there’s, you know, there’s investors or you know, you’ve gotten money from somebody or that kind of thing, you know, sometimes those are good pressures. That’s youth stress. It’s the kind of stress that you want to force your hand a bit and to really make you execute at the highest level.
[00:14:47] Um, so there you go. I mean, I think that’s, that’s my reflection on it.
[00:14:52] MV: Interesting. So a couple of reflections for me. I mean, first of all, I also feel I don’t have enough accountability, uh, in my business. And it makes me think about, we’re talking about corporate life. We both kind of wanted to get away from different types of corporations, but one of the upsides as people discovered, like working from home as suppose an office means, You’re trying to separate your, you know, not all people who start their own businesses obviously work from home.
[00:15:14] They might work from, um, a coworker’s base or even higher offices eventually, but, you know, you’ve gotta pay for it. If you’re gonna do that. If you’re gonna work from home, you’ve gotta pay for heating, which a lot of British people are struggling with right now. Like anyone in Europe, um, with the gas prices.
[00:15:26] Um, and you also have to define a workspace or if you’re gonna hire offices, you’ve gotta define everything really, haven’t you? And then the other thing is, even more importantly, you have a boss and it turns out that’s a seriously useful function, even though you might hate him or her. Um, and that’s not productive if you hate them.
[00:15:40] But if you dislike them but they get work out of you, then that’s seriously useful and, and that, as you say, that’s hard to replace. Cuz if you are at the top of the pyramid, that feels like great freedom. I think we’re both revel in that. And then we’re both sort of people that maybe that go. Oh, now what?
[00:15:55] JM: Mm.
[00:15:55] MV: difficult. I, I have to say. , my part of my solution would be to try and find for myself what I’ve managed to create a thing for other people, which is the 10 K Collect Mastermind, I feel like could be better at accountability. But there is a certain natural peer pressure when you see someone, you go, that guy’s not as bright as me.
[00:16:11] He hasn’t been in business for like a 10th as long. Why is he doing that while she doing that? That’s very positive and I don’t have that situation at the moment. And, and it’s not easy to find a good peer group. Uh, you know, we talked about that a while ago. You were gonna join a peer group or a mastermind or so.
[00:16:25] Did you turn something in the end?
[00:16:26] JM: No
[00:16:28] MV: Okay. Is that cuz you also couldn’t find a group that you felt was, you know, gonna do the job for you?
[00:16:34] JM: Yeah. No. I don’t know. It just didn’t come together so. It, this is a hard one. You know, because you have external, you, you know, you do have external people like a cpa, um, or people who you know, will, uh, speak into your business to some degree. Obviously, the law holds us all accountable and the, the, you know, tax her Royal Majesty or his, what do you call it now?
[00:16:55] His
[00:16:56] MV: H M R C I suppose it would be his
[00:16:58] JM: His Royal
[00:16:59] MV: and customs. Yeah, it’s called His Majesty’s Revenue and Customs now. Yeah, you’re right. I’m, I’ve been used to saying it the other way for. Yeah. But yeah, I suppose, yeah, the king doesn’t literally turn up and actually Gracie with his presence though, so it’s not very personal.
[00:17:12] You just get an impersonal email saying you’ve been fined a hundred pounds or something.
[00:17:16] JM: yeah. But the, but the, that, the whole question of who, you know, are there external sources or pressures that are holding you accountable, I think is, um, you know, that’s a, that’s a real, real, uh, It’s different. It’s different than a A mastermind and with, of course you are leading a mastermind, so I don’t think you’ll disagree with this, but it is different than a mastermind or even being in something that people say is like a mentoring or kind of online program.
[00:17:38] Cuz you know, those are all generally group, you know. , even if you have a coach and we do coaching, it’s sometimes hard for me to hold our coaching clients accountable to their, you know, to what they’ve said because it, it can be awkward,
[00:17:53] MV: Tell me about it. I sent somebody a text yesterday. I was reflecting on that today cuz I, I sent, I’d spent some time, you know, looking at some of the numbers of somebody’s business that I said I’m gonna need. Actually the next thing I need a few me is X. And he said, oh yeah, I’ve been putting those numbers into it.
[00:18:07] It’s Shopify of all things, I mean, You know, I said, look, I’m an Amazon specialist mostly, but I’ve worked on a couple of Shopify agencies who wanted to work with me, so okay, fine. So I’ve got more of a learning curve there than with with Amazon stuff. But anyway, I said, look, I’ve been through this with a fine tooth comb.
[00:18:19] You don’t have the [00:18:20] level of Shopify that’s gonna give the report that I need, so I need you to do this next. And I thought, hmm, how do I phrase this? And actually, I did say, well, look, it’s your business so it’s your time. Whereas I was almost kind of moving into we’re we’re co-invested, no worries. Almost moving the opposite way, going into like conductor mode, like get this done, otherwise we can’t move this forward.
[00:18:38] And I realized, is that appropriate? And because he’s paying me, I felt, no, it isn’t. And then afterwards I thought my second reflection on that was, but actually I’d be sending him a hell of a lot better if I had the courage to say, you need to get this done by Monday. 12 o’clock or we are gonna be having words and then of course you’re worried cuz you think you might lose the client or you know.
[00:18:56] But actually the truth is, I, if you are sort of heading in this direction, actually having somebody who’s gonna give you the tough love is more helpful. And as you say, like a paid coach doesn’t necessarily feel like that person. You know, it’s interesting, isn’t it?
[00:19:09] JM: it’s a dance. I’ve lost cl, I’ve lost clients because I’ve, I’ve had a firm stance on things that they just didn’t want to hear.
[00:19:16] MV: Me too, actually. Yeah.
[00:19:18] JM: yeah. So that’s interesting, isn’t it? Because then it’s, it’s kind of like that. And then if you put yourself on the other side of the table, you’re saying, well, I’m the boss of my business and I have somebody saying something I disagree with or don’t want to hear.
[00:19:30] I’m just gonna stop the deal. I’m gonna stop the relationship. See you later. Goodbye. And, and the question is, is that peak, is that gonna generate peak performance in you? Or you know, is peak performance generated by having that coach? I think it was Tom Landry. I like to quote it a lot. Who says the coach is someone who makes you look at things you don’t wanna see?
[00:19:50] Makes you do things you don’t wanna do. So you can be the person you always thought you could be, or, you
[00:19:54] MV: I really like that, that that’s, you see, that’s my approach to like conducting or piano player, piano teaching was always like that. I’m like, You know, so I was trained as a performer. I, it’s all about, you know, a bit like in, in business, it wasn’t primarily about the relationship with the person. It was we are here to do a job and we absolutely must deliver a bit like a military mindset, I guess in, in classical music.
[00:20:14] Right. And, um, You know, I have to back off that so strongly when I’m working with like an amateur choir, still conduct a choir once a week. They’re pretty bad and I have to remember to praise them for what I think is really substandard and things, which is a good motivational thing. But also I have to remember that they probably don’t care that much about the outcome compared to what I do.
[00:20:31] But actually, Uh, I’m kind of with Tom Landry. If you’ll wanna be an amateur, and maybe this cuts to the, the, the crux of it, if you wanna be an amateur and play it business, there’s nothing wrong with that as a hobby. It’s, it’s not gonna be what you thought it was, but okay. You’ll find that out and, and then you’ll decide to get serious or you’ll quit.
[00:20:45] And neither’s fine. And I’m not judging. But if you actually wanna build a business that could be robust enough to survive, difficult times to support you and your family, I guess you probably need to hire Tom Landry and give them permission. Probably explicitly, but certainly implicitly at some level to hold your feet to the fire because honestly, that’s naturally my inclination on, I think probably I would serve my clients better if I were more free to be in that direction.
[00:21:08] But as you say, it’s a dance and it’s a tricky one. That one.
[00:21:12] JM: and the experiences, at least in my life, the times that I look back on the, like, you know, thinking of sports, the coaches that I had who held us to the highest standard, who made us work the hardest we possibly could. I look back with the most fondness in terms of those. Phases of my life or those experiences because I think, you know, I’m you.
[00:21:35] I’m not saying you’re wrong, but I bet you those people in that informal choir, maybe they have a higher degree of desire for quality than you might guess. Maybe they just have never had the time or energy or the training to actually execute, but they’re looking for everybody who’s a part of a team, or you want it to be good, you know, you,
[00:21:57] MV: Well, I mean the, the truth is, Jason, that I’m not really able to back off who I am. I mean, like, if you hire me as a conductor for a choir, then I’m gonna be, you know, on it. I’m gonna like this. You know, we’re gonna make the best I can out of the people in front of me. And to be fair, I don’t try and get them up to standard.
[00:22:13] That’s just impossible for you. They are, but it better be better. And they, my God, they better be listening and watching. And I kind of naturally bring that to the business coaching game more and more these days as I’m getting more confident that I know what I’m doing. After several years of focusing on this and.
[00:22:26] And Yeah, I, I think you’re right actually. I think, um, with the Mastermind, I’m silly. Get to the point where I’m, I’m, like I said the other day to, to the guys. Like a few things they’re gonna tweak with how we operate, but one of them is gonna be, it’s gonna be a lot more about the numbers. And I don’t mean revenue.
[00:22:39] I wanna know profit numbers and I wanna track those more over time. And one of the best sellers and most experienced people in the agree media, so Great. I really felt for a long time we should do that. So there is an appetite for it. Yeah, there’s an, there is an
[00:22:52] JM: talent, the top talent.
[00:22:54] MV: want this.
[00:22:54] JM: Always want them to be challenged. Totally. But here’s a harder question. This is question 2.5. Are you holding yourself to that level for your own personal behavior and you’re showing up in your own work? And if I had to ask myself am am I holding myself accountable to my best ability to execute frequently, I’d say no.
[00:23:13] I kind of let myself slack off, you know,
[00:23:17] MV: Oh yeah. For me, the answer would be no. Absolutely not. I mean, I, I feel like I’ve been a bit overwhelmed and that happens in, in everyone’s life, just simply from moving and, and having that on top of everything else. And, um, It doesn’t help. That’s being freezing cold in London is in the new place
[00:23:31] JM: we make excuses for
[00:23:32] MV: Yeah, there you go. But I mean, you know, draw waves, the the, I mean, you can only do so many things. I think what’s in interesting is if you’ve got lots of things you’re trying to do, you know, you stand back and you go, well, realistically, something’s gonna suffer. And that can be okay if it’s not the thing you really care about.
[00:23:47] In which case the point might be, well actually, maybe you should stop even pretending to do that. Shut it down or, you know, outsource it or give it to somebody else in your organization to manage or something. And I think, um, that’s, I’m trying to spend too many days with
[00:24:00] JM: narrowing your focus maybe is the
[00:24:01] MV: Yeah, exactly. And I think, um, also the thing I’ve realized, and this is kind of like.
[00:24:07] Obvious moment, but it’s the intellectual knowledge of one thing and the experience can be quite different. Right? So my experience is caught up with the fact that maybe Mike, maybe just, maybe you should try and have, you know, three new initiatives per year instead of trying to do them all at the same time, which is so blindingly obvious.
[00:24:26] But I’ve been trying to do, let’s make the Mastermind better. Let’s take on a new client. And that sort of manages Amazon stuff for its startup type thing, which is always demanding. Let’s keep all the other things spinning. I’m being. . And the truth is obviously that’s probably not very likely with me in a tiny team.
[00:24:40] Uh, but I can achieve those things if I give myself, you know, realistically, maybe those two are enough for this, this business year, maybe even one this year, one next year. But, but rather than just kind of promising myself, I’ll do all of it and then doing it really badly. So that’s my, my reflection recently.
[00:24:55] JM: Well, that’s a good, um, summation, I think of this, uh, hard second question, and I’ll just say again, as a leader, there’s so many examples in the world of corporate and nonprofit management, civil society where people don’t hold themselves to high standard and have nobody holding them accountable and they run off the rail.
[00:25:15] MV: Yeah. It’s like the Roman Empires, uh, used to apparently hire somebody to walk alongside them and say, you’re full of it, you
[00:25:20] JM: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:21] MV: uh, you know, that’s possibly a bit extreme. They, they were wise enough to know that they were gonna go off the rails, that they didn’t have some accountability.
[00:25:27] So,
[00:25:28] JM: Exactly.
[00:25:29] [00:27:30]
[00:29:06] JM:
[00:29:06]
[00:29:55]