The E-commerce Leader

[00:00:00] Michael: All decision making is value clarification. When you have to make a decision, it forces you to reflect on what do you really care about? And if you have to decide between a and B, then the way you go tells you something about yourself.
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[00:01:11] Jason: E-commerce decision making is one of the most crucial aspects of starting and scaling and e-commerce operation.
[00:01:18] How do you make decisions wisely and profitably in the e-commerce? That is the conversations topic for today. We’ve got a great panel. Kyle, Chris and Michael, I hope you’re ready to jump into this vital topic. I would categorize this as one of the most important things any of us could ever think about how to wisely make decisions.
[00:01:40] So we’re gonna go around the table here and get people’s feedback and perspective. If you’re listening to us, live in the groups, we’d love your comments as well in the chats. And we’ll be happy to integrate those as we go. Who’d like to kick it off today. Shall we, , hand the Baton to, , one of you to start feel free?
[00:01:56] Chris is ready to rock and roll. Chris. What’s your point of view on eCommerce decision making as a business owner. To me, it’s, it is
[00:02:03] Chris: There’s two big groups of decisions. And I say this as someone who helps people get started, whether they’re doing, arbitrage or wholesale selling Amazon eBay print on demand, whatever it might be.
[00:02:13] To me, that’s one humongous set of decisions to be like what am I gonna pursue? What. Is gonna solve the problems that I’m loo am I looking for a creative outlet? Am I looking to replace my income full time? Am I looking for a side hustle? I saw this video, I heard about this, all of these different things, and I’ve seen this over 20 years of people pursuing things that they’re not a good match for because they, they see the money they’re just chasing the money aspect of it.
[00:02:36] Or they don’t realize that they can actually make money doing something that they actually really and as a creative outlet, Kind of having some, information around that decision to be like, you know what, I’m going to decide to do this because I want to accomplish this goal and make this much money.
[00:02:53] And then you have a whole separate set of decision making. Okay. Now that I’ve chosen that. Where do I start? What do I do? How do I scale? How do I build, how do I source all of these different things? So I really see two, two, like distinct groups of decisions. And we can spend time, on both of ’em, for me personally, as someone who helps people get started I think people should.
[00:03:11] Not follow money, not chase. Oh, I heard there’s money in CBD. Great. How’s that working out when you don’t actually care about CBD products and care about the results of your customers? But there’s money in it, right? It’s and so many people did that. And then, and I’ve seen people do that repeatedly, which is to me, The one, the bad part, is you’re doing the same thing over and over again. You’re chasing it. Didn’t work. It failed now you’re chasing again. It’s no, no stop come back. And we talked about mentors, on a previous show and I think that’s a good place to start as well. It’s find someone who’s doing what you want to do and go talk to them and see if that’s actually what you want to do.
[00:03:43] You actually see behind the scenes that day to day kind of things, instead of oh, you’re famous on TikTok and you make big money. Yeah, there’s more. Than that. So there’s so much that goes into it, but I think people should start with those two basic things what to do. And then now that you’ve chosen what to do, how to
[00:03:56] Jason: execute it.
[00:03:57] Yeah. Yeah. I love that. All right. Great. Kyle, you wanna jump? Yeah, I
[00:04:02] Kyle: think one thing that we can do for a good decision making I read a quote. It was from Jeff Bezos one time and he was talking about decision making at Amazon. I think it was shareholder letter. And he talked about type one decisions and type two decisions and a type one decision.
[00:04:18] Now he categorized, it was a decision that was basically a one way door and there. They’re consequential. They’re hard to reverse or nearly irreversible. And he is with those decisions, you have to be methodical. Careful, slow, get good consultation, get good. Advice from mentors, coaches thought leaders.
[00:04:39] People that you trust and really think about it. Those are type one, but these like most decisions aren’t like that they’re changeable reversible in the two way doors. And if you make the suboptimal type two decision choices you don’t have to live with the consequences for that long.
[00:04:53] You can actually just switch and pivot and be on your way and learn from the mistake. So I guess my, from a decision making standpoint, being able to recognize clearly. What is a type one and type two decision, what is a one-way door? And what’s a two-way door. I think that’s a pretty critical decision making skillset for any entrepreneur.
[00:05:12] Jason: I love that. Yeah. That’s really interesting. , Michael, what’s your thought?
[00:05:18] Michael: Yeah, love both of the things you said, what you wanna do and what you really want is a critical thing. I think you said Chris and the Jeff Bezos quote is great as well. For me A thought and a sort of meta thought.
[00:05:28] So one is clarifying what matters to you is surprisingly hard. And I think it’s an essential component of decisions. Now, if you wanna formalize that into more of a business structure, what it comes down to is your business’s values, but writing a document that’s called a, whatever missing statement on the one hand, and then hiring a bunch of people who’ve never seen it or care about it on the other.
[00:05:46] Isn’t really gonna cut it. So what it really matters is what really matters to you and anyone you work with rather than what you think does to flip down on its head. , I had a really good business coach, Dan Bray, who was, and is an LP expert. And he said, all decision making is value clarification. So to put it on its head, when you have to make a decision, it forces you to reflect on what do you really care about?
[00:06:08] And if you have to decide between a and B, then the way you go tells you something about yourself, that’s really important. And I think what can happen is it’s more of a dance between your values and the decisions, rather than just a one way thing. Clarify VI values in some kind of away day with your leadership team.
[00:06:24] And then that’s it’s more make a decision realize from that, that you really didn’t want to, get into print under mine cuz you don’t care about t-shirts and that you really want to be, I dont know making perfect dog food or something cuz you’re obsessed with dogs and then realize that next time a decision comes around.
[00:06:38] Remember how that decision went. What it showed you about your true values and try and follow, what you really care about rather than, as you said, Chris, shiny objects,
[00:06:48] Jason: all decisions are value clarifications. Is that the gist of it, dude? That is awesome. Jason you’re muted. Yeah. Jason, I think you’re
[00:06:54] Michael: muted.
[00:06:55] Oh,
[00:06:56] Jason: sorry. All decisions are value clarifications. Is that the gist of it? Yeah, exactly. Really powerful ideas. Yeah.
[00:07:03] Michael: Very good insight. I thought I’m very true. Yeah.
[00:07:06] Jason: Okay. So my 2 cents on this topic, I think as I mentioned into opening of the show decision making is probably the most important thing any of us can ever obsess over and really dwell on and learn about.
[00:07:18] I would, I was just thinking this morning before the show started, that if you could train someone. for six months or a year in just decision making and then have them start an e-commerce company. How much more wickedly efficient and awesome would they be at the execution of it? I, the decision making skills that go into it.
[00:07:38] I think I was triggered by this whole idea. When I heard on the all in podcast guy, I think one of their guests said you guys are all billionaires because over the years and decades, repeatedly made correct business decisions and attributing it to their decision making onto luck that they were billionaires.
[00:07:58] Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle, but but they executed effectively. And and I think there’s a lot to us to unpack here. I’ll just mention one thing that I think is super important. Maybe this is a version of a whole different podcast we can dig into, but I think the money decisions for your business are super central.
[00:08:17] To thinking through how to move forward and operate. And I’ll just mention five things. Like you could have five different money goals for your business, and they’re all completely different. So that there’s a different set of activities. You’d pursue the first one. We all know this, but the first one is just pursuing top line revenue.
[00:08:33] Many Amazon sellers are obsessed over top line revenue. They just want the seven figure business. Did it make any money profit wise? No, but it made a million dollars in top line sales. So the obvious second question is what about the profit focused business cinnamon? And I went through this cycle of thinking probably 2011, 2012, where we really said to ourselves, what are we focusing on here?
[00:08:56] Short answer it better be profit. not top line revenue. So those two things are obvious, but there are several others that are less obvious that people should think about. You can build a eCommerce business for asset accumulation. We’ll have a six figure event this year in our business because we bought a property several years ago and our business funded the property purchase and add that ACU.
[00:09:21] That’s a whole different game. The fourth thing could be, you actually could build a business just for the pursuit of it as an asset and go through a seed round, an a round B round C round, go through a, an IPO. There are many Silicon valley businesses that go through that pursuit. They don’t care about top line revenue or net profit.
[00:09:40] They care about asset value of their company, and that’s what they strive for. That’s what Bezos. And then the fourth or the fifth thing is, you could build a whole company just to be charitable and to steward resources, to make a difference in the world. So those five things just off the top of my mind are like, those are all really important money decisions.
[00:09:58] And there are a lot of other choices in a business like staffing, organizational structure, do you wanna be a laptop lifestyle guy or do you wanna have a big company? All of these things weave together to. eCommerce an amazingly difficult game to play. And so I, I think it’s vital for us to think through some of this.
[00:10:17] And I would just say a reflective introspection of your own behavior and attitudes are central to growing and learning and understanding what it is that we’re doing. So anyway, those are my, my thoughts on this topic. Does that ricochet action happen for anybody comments?
[00:10:33] Response to what I said. I’ve got
[00:10:35] Michael: three quick, hopefully quick ones. First of all. I love your thought of training. Somebody in the sort of ninja art of decision making before they run a business. I suppose if I put that together with the all decision making is value, clarification piece, the reality is that we get better at making decisions by having to make them.
[00:10:51] So I think , you are not wrong that somebody with incredible decision making ability will make a much better entrepreneur, but I think you can only really do that by doing it. You as my experience. The return on luck concept is so talking about luck. I do think that you are right. There is quite a degree of luck with the people that make very serious money, particularly as well as correct decision making.
[00:11:11] And there’s a really great concept called the return on luck by Jim Collins, which is from great by choice. I think, which particularly important because it deals with companies that have done very well in very challenging and environments which includes eCommerce and return on luck is an idea that you everyone’s gonna get some lucky breaks.
[00:11:28] And it’s how well do you maximize on those when they happen? And you know how good it, you are finding them and making the most of them. The other thing that strikes me to your point, and then funny enough, I’d literally just finished writing a blog article that started with the idea that Amazon sellers are obsessed with revenue and that’s fools gold.
[00:11:44] But the reason why is because somebody else has told us it’s important. And to your point, Chris, not just shiny object syndrome about business models, but we get a kind. Shiny object about the goals that we could should, or shouldn’t have, should I have a big house? Should I have a big business? Should I be being Willy waving?
[00:12:01] I’m trying to find the word, but I couldn’t contest with other people in business conferences. Is that actually gonna make you happy? I think in a lot of cases, the answer is no to all of them, but we get this peer pressure to think we should have top line revenue that’s big or build a very serious business or whatever it is.
[00:12:17] So peer pressure and then expectations of other people don’t just apply to business models. I think we can inherit other people’s values unexamined sometimes without realizing that they’re not for us. Yeah. I
[00:12:29] Jason: love it. Okay. Let’s let me ask this question. As we wrap up the convers. How do you get better at decision making personally Kyle, Chris, Michael how would you say you’ve personally gotten better?
[00:12:40] Michael just said it’s through practice. I said a, re reflecting on your behavior. Kyle, what’s your thought on it?
[00:12:48] Kyle: I think you get better at decision making by simplifying your decision. and I think that goes down to setting good guide rails about prioritization. What does matter?
[00:12:58] Getting clarity on it? Because there is something like a decision fatigue that can occur, especially if you’re in a very high stress job. And you think of for example, the president of the United States, I think they asked like Barack Obama one time, like, why do you wear the exact same suit every single day and see so I don’t have to think about.
[00:13:14] Because I have to make so many decisions throughout the day that what they wear, what they eat for breakfast. It’s I don’t have to make the, I don’t have to think about it. I just do it out of habit. So I think how to get better at making decisions is you simplify. And you clarify what those guide roles are for those decisions.
[00:13:30] And you try to operate off of a first principle’s mindset.
[00:13:33] Jason: I love that. Yeah. Chris, any thought on that? How do you personally feel like you get better at decision making? I think a lot of people have it
[00:13:40] Chris: confused. And I say this to someone who probably was confused on some of this stuff in the past.
[00:13:45] As we’re talking about this I’m taking notes down here. Kyle Love you say about type one and type two decisions. I think, deciding what to do, what business to pursue is more of a type one. And then how to. Execute that there’s more of these type twos. What platform am I gonna use to start a podcast?
[00:13:57] Yeah. Decide. And you can always go back but people make, myself included, overthink all these things. So you don’t overthink. You need to take action. You need to execute. You need to get momentum and a big thing that I’m thinking about lately. And I predict this will hit home with a lot of people, especially like you guys here on this call.
[00:14:14] I think a lot of people are pursuing or they believe what. What’s gonna help them accomplish their goals is by taking specific actions or taking actions in a certain order. And that’s what they’re chasing. What do I do next? What should I do? What action do I need to take instead of no, what decision do I need to make?
[00:14:29] And action versus a decision or choice are very different things. Like you said, billionaires made a lot of, correct decisions or made a lot of choices that led them to where they are. They didn’t take actions, they didn’t follow a playbook said, look, if you do these 19 actions in a row, you’re gonna be a billion.
[00:14:43] That doesn’t exist. If it existed, everybody would’ve bought the book and be a billionaire by now. So it’s not actions, it’s decisions and learn the difference between those. And once you make a decision, then take the actions that go along with those decisions. And don’t think that the decision is the action.
[00:14:58] It’s not a decision is it’s something that a lot of people don’t. Have to take, don’t like to take, it’s easier for someone else to make the decision a decision for them. Yeah. That’s why a lot of people are more comfortable being an employee instead of being a boss. And if you’re a, an entrepreneur or a solopreneur, you’re the employee.
[00:15:14] The boss, you have to know the difference. It’s very different. Making decisions is harder than people think. It’s oh, I can make a decision. I can make a choice. It’s harder than people think. They think they’re making a decision when they’re actually just taking an action and actions aren’t gonna lead you to where you want to go.
[00:15:26] Decisions
[00:15:26] Jason: are, dude, you just took it to a meta level, which is, do you like making decisions? If you do you maybe come a lot, be an entrepreneur and some you’re totally right. I don’t like
[00:15:37] Chris: decision sometimes. Like I’ve been an employee. Sure. They’re. There are days where I wish I could come home and not think about things.
[00:15:44] Yeah. Like I don’t have to make decisions anymore. Yeah. Someone told me what I needed to do today. When I’m done those things, I can get money and I can go home. That is a very comfortable, easy. There’s nothing wrong with it type of thing. But if you wanna be an entrepreneur, you have to make decisions and it’s harder.
[00:15:57] It’s a different game.
[00:15:58] Jason: That’s right. No doubt agree
[00:16:01] Kyle: played. Yeah. So it matters. You, it, your internal psychology will have a massive, it’s like the output of your decisions are gonna be first formed within the psychology of you as the person. So you have to really understand yourself and where you have weaknesses and strengths in making those decisions and either make those improvements or.
[00:16:22] Pivot away from the decision making that it’s causing you ineffectiveness or you’re not really strength. It’s not strength
[00:16:28] Jason: of yours. Yeah, totally love this conversation. You guys. So I’m just gonna mention two books that I think are great resources for decision making and I’d love if there’s any other books that you’d recommend for you to mention those as well.
[00:16:40] It’s so funny, the atomic habits book has been just like a total dominant bests seller. For a couple years now. And it’s so weird because it was such a hot bests seller. I resisted the temptation to even look at it, cuz I don’t know why I was rebelling against it or something like that.
[00:16:55] But then finally I was like, okay, there’s whatever it is, 4,000 reviews or 40,000 reviews or whatever, I better buy this book and it, and I think it’s very helpful to thinking through habits, but it’s really about decision making. You could look at it in that frame. And so atomic habits is the book I’d recommend.
[00:17:12] The second book I’d recommend is the old E but goody always talk about, which is the goal, the hoo gold rate. And he asks three questions in that business parable, what to change two. And how to make the change. And that again, in my mind is all about decision making and he frames it in the context of the theory of constraints and how to make a business more efficient, but it really comes down to optimal decision making.
[00:17:37] So those are my two go-to book recommendations for this conversation. Anybody else have something that they would say was a good resource for decision making. ,
[00:17:45] Kyle: I like the principles by Ray Dalio too. It’s not quite in the eCommerce vein, but I think you get a good understanding of how someone who looks at a macro level at the market and thinking approaches things.
[00:17:57] So it’s, there’s value in that.
[00:17:58] Jason: Yep, sure.
[00:18:00] Chris: I would say. No, this will be quick. Any book, right? Get on Amazon, read search for any book. Most people read, no read a book. If you’re reading
[00:18:09] Jason: some kind book with good reviews, please just do that. And
[00:18:14] Kyle: Jason, for the, that is a decision read a book
[00:18:18] Jason: read. I love it.
[00:18:18] The decision atomic habits has
[00:18:20] Chris: 94,000
[00:18:22] Jason: Amazon reviews. Yeah. Yeah. That’s amazing. And I didn’t wanna, I, because of those reviews, I didn’t. Listen to the audible, but then I finally did, and I was like, now I see why people write this book because it does have such a logical framework and it is helpful.
[00:18:36] Michael, any thoughts on books?
[00:18:38] Michael: Yes. Two I’ve listened to recently and I’m so glad I did. One was recommended by an eCommerce operator who was one of those people that, that built a business and sold it for seven figures within three years, a guy called Ben Leonard. So I took his recommendation seriously and I glad I did.
[00:18:51] So this guy called Greg McEwen is the author and. Best known and best book. I think’s probably essentialism. Which is, as it sounds sounds like you’ve gotta cut things to essentials, but then he goes through lots of subtle ways in which you can apply this to life. And it really is such a single powerful tool for decision making.
[00:19:08] It’s like the hammer of decision making. If the basic tool for making a house is hammering a lot of nails and this is the hammer. It’s an amazing book. So I definitely re. Love
[00:19:16] Jason: that. All right, guys, as always, it’s an honor. This has been a great conversation. I just challenge everybody listening to this to spend time the back half of this year, thinking about your decision making, getting better and better at the frameworks you use the real deep questions.
[00:19:31] Take time to. Get away and go camping or reflect or something to really spend time figuring out what your optimal decision making path is to produce the business that you want to get you where you wanna be in life and in society. And so gen as always, thank you so much wonderful conversation.
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