The E-commerce Leader

[00:00:00] Chris: there are so many ways to get traffic and basically getting attention to your product, your course, your podcast, your book, your service, your, anything, it’s all an attention game. And there are multiple ways. many free And many pain that can get you that attention.
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[00:01:13] Michael: Hello there folks we are talking today about organic versus paid traffic, which is better. And why, we’ve asked him deliberately, obviously, a versus B question. What I’m going to be interested in is just to see if actually there’s any sort of middle ground or a combination of the two, which is yeah.
[00:01:26] Would be my thinking about it. Chris, how you doing your fresh and your launch of a book as a course?
[00:01:30] Chris: Course as a book like you seek could do book is of course
[00:01:33] I’ve got the first shipment of books that came in.
[00:01:36] Your should be coming soon. Some people are getting them fast.
[00:01:39] Michael: I’m looking forward to it. Yeah. I started listening to the Udemy course today and I am loving it already. I really liked the mindset component that you built in there. It’s fantastic. So I think, you’re spot on with that. So yeah, it’d be fascinating to follow how that works, your launch.
[00:01:52] As a bonus
[00:01:52] Chris: tip for everybody listening, as Jason comes in, I self-published through Amazon fire, me and Colin, Pete. And even though Michael is over in the UK on London time and doing all the, I actually explained bonnet and boots. My daughter today on the way to school. And I was able to send you a copy.
[00:02:11] It actually ships from Germany. I don’t know if they always shipped from Germany or if they’re going to eventually ship from the UK. But even though I am here in the U S without any inventory, other than the ones that I just got, I can go on Amazon and place an order for what’s called an author copy and say, yeah, I want it in the UK.
[00:02:26] And then my same amazon.com login will work on amazon.co.uk. I get Michael’s address. I put it in an Amazon ad costs like $11. Ships Michael, and I’ll have to do anything. And I have to spend $35 on us. The UK postage. I don’t have to fill out customs forms
[00:02:44] Michael: after three weeks for it to get there, ends up in your door from the U S it’s so opposite to the U S is a relationship with the world.
[00:02:50] Chris: We can hop straight into organic paid, because I like the, you framed it at the beginning, which one is best, right? Like at like we’re looking for an answer and like most things on it used to be a very kind of black and white thinker. I’ve mellowed and gotten very gray, but pretty much everything lately.
[00:03:06] But that’s the same thing, but there is not a best, because I don’t want people to go black and white thinking and be like, oh, they said this one and then only do one because there’s no. Only one, you can do organic and paid as well, or you couldn’t do one or the other. And if certainly, if somebody doesn’t have a marketing budget or any experience, they don’t want, like you get in paid ads right away, they can certainly go to the organic route, but it’s not an either or people need to think in the scale of time that like what works today is going to work tomorrow.
[00:03:33] What am I able to do today that maybe I can’t do until the future? What’s the future? I’m gonna adjust my strategy and think that way instead of, Hey, Jason, I need to know what the best strategy for traffic is. And that’s the only one I’m going to do. And 10 years from now, I’m not going to consider that’s crazy talk, right?
[00:03:51] There are so many ways to get traffic and basically getting attention to your product, your course, your podcast, your book, your service, your, anything, it’s all an attention game. And there are multiple ways. many free And many pain that can get you that attention. So people need to match up the ones that best suit their personal strengths, their personal budget, their personal goals.
[00:04:12] And that’s what I’d like to talk about today is help people match up things that work for them best combined with a strategy. Okay. What would I like to be doing six months from now, 12 months from now, 24 months from now, and then really have a plan.
[00:04:25] Michael: It sounds like great stuff. I, yeah, I think it is useful to divide things up. I’m going to put this as sort of meta level reflection. There’s an old saying, and I loved how his philosophy, cause he seems like quite, they seem like cool characters somehow.
[00:04:38] I used to do Tai Chi, so that’s my only really deep connection with it. And there was a story about a book. And, there’s an amateur hacks away at things and they see only a big lump. And after about a month, they have to throw the knives away and start again. The, professionals see distinctions, they see lots of different, they understand the anatomy and that they can, cut very cleanly and they can keep their nice shot for a year.
[00:05:00] They said that the Dow was people just both at the same time and they never need to throw the lies away cause they know exactly where their space is on. So to your point, without being too weird and pretentious about it, what the hell am I trying to say? What I’m trying to say is, at the simplest possible level.
[00:05:12] It’s just internet marketing, what nurses, it’s a big lump. Then we have to get to the stage where we break it into pieces and we do paid versus organic. And that is valuable. And for a lot of us, we’re still figuring out those distinctions. But in the end, I think you’ve got to synthesize it all together.
[00:05:25] That’s my take on it now. More, more concretely. I’m an Amazon focus guy. So that’s what I’m gonna speak to you. Some points might be transferable to other systems, on the Amazon platform, I say you can’t really, in my experience, separate paid ads from organic in a pure way because the organic SEO or growth algorithm on Amazon responds strongly to pay that.
[00:05:44] It’s now allegedly, as I understand it on Google, that was stopped, by probably some antitrust legislation quite a long time ago, but, I don’t know if that’s true or not. Practical points then some people therefore for are paying too much for ads that aren’t performing because they’re not making that.
[00:05:57] Sure. Their organic SEO side is good. So their opportunities really great keyword research, make sure your listings optimized to rank organically and doing some great CRO work. So conversion rate optimization. So whoever. Gets the sale. There’s no substitute for good products and great reviews.
[00:06:13] Obviously some people aren’t doing any paid ads and they obviously have an opportunity there and some big sellers, like some nearly eight figure sellers in the mastermind here on really not doing any paid advertising. We’re gently persuading them to try out in small chunks, with limited budgets.
[00:06:29] Find the point I would say is that Amazon. I don’t think it’s the only ad platform, but it’s the one I know is getting very expensive to Amazon advertise on. If you’re comparing year on year, you might be saying maybe in some cases, a 50% rise you’re in year. And even compared with 24 months ago, it might be even more.
[00:06:45] So I don’t think that’s going away because Amazon needs our money. That’s one of the profit centers. So the implications are, if you’re going to use them, get good at Amazon ads, you can’t be slack and make sure your SEO and at CRO works really good. And. To your point, Jason, Chris sooner or later, you’re going to need to get good at off Amazon organic traffic, because it’s going to be a harder, hardest to make Amazon ads profitable.
[00:07:07] Kyle: Oh, that’s, this is such a fun topic. I think that here’s ultimately, here’s the truth. Everybody would do organic traffic if they get. Because it’s going to be the cheapest. If you gave me a choice and said, Hey, do you want organic sales on Amazon or paid? I’m like, I’ll take organic because I don’t want to pay for it.
[00:07:26] If I’m on Google, would you like organic Google traffic or would you like to pay for it? I’m going to take organic all day long, right? Like it’s going to be the cheapest, most profitable traffic, the challenge. Building organic traffic to scale that will matter significantly to your business takes two.
[00:07:45] And it takes a growing expertise. And ultimately when you’re getting started with a brand or you’re launching your product, or you’re trying to get it out of the gate, you don’t want to take that much time, ultimately, in typical scenario. And that’s why we. Optimized to paid traffic, right?
[00:08:03] Because the net, the con of paid traffic to what Michael had said is that it is in fact expensive and getting more so as you get more competition, but the pro for it is that you can adjust it like. You can turn it up and you can turn it down. And so you have really fine tune controls if you’re trying to scale something into it.
[00:08:22] So when you’re starting out from scratch pay traffic is probably one of the few ways. There are a few, but definitely paid traffic is one of them where you can actually get visibility for your products or services, without having to worry. Writing blog posts or getting back links, or if you’re trying to build organic rank on Google or creating really pillar content or getting, positioned properly on Amazon.
[00:08:44] So that’s really the pro con I think it’s about speed. I would say this too. One of the main reasons why I think we face. Or make not failed to make paid traffic harder than it should be is because we don’t get, we don’t have clear outcomes and goals with it, at the beginning. And we don’t really understand the numbers that need to work to make it viable.
[00:09:09] And I think if we do that early enough before. Paste send a, spend a single dollar on any paid traffic. We know clearly this is the outcome that we want to drive for. This is the cost. And these are the numbers that are gonna make it work. What are we, what can we afford to spend to acquire a sale or to get an email opt-in then, we don’t, we’re basically wasting our time and money and energy and that’s unfortunate, but that’s what all of us do because we jump in and we think we’re going to get a result.
[00:09:36] That’s my hot take.
[00:09:36] Michael: So Jason you’re with this. Fantastic. What are your hot takes page versus organic traffic? A very contentious question in its own phrasing, which is.
[00:09:46] Jason: Yeah, I look at this as a framework of like good, better, best. And there’s actually three things I think that are in my mind. One is like the bottom rung on the ladder is. Traffic the second better, option is organic traffic, but there’s actually a third, step in the ladder that most people don’t think about.
[00:10:06] And that’s what you might call self-liquidating leads. It’s a clunky, weird phrase, but it’s the type of traffic that pays you to come through the door when you get paid for them to be added to your, community or your list. That is the ultimate, traffic source. So I would rank order them now. Paid then organic and then self-liquidating and happy to break down self-liquidating and talk about examples and get into the best of organic as well.
[00:10:32] But there you go. That’s my thought.
[00:10:33] Michael: That sounds like certainly something we should follow up on. So I’ll hold you to telling me about what I used to be for the SLO right. Settled self-liquidating offer beloved of info market is since I’d been learning about internet marketing, for sure. So let’s circle back round pot.
[00:10:45] It takes round two. Any thoughts on the things we’ve heard so far, Chris let’s come back to you for.
[00:10:49] Jason: I’ve dealt a lot with people with the organic traffic
[00:10:53] Chris: being, pretty early to FBA being early to merge by Amazon, being early to KDP and got a lot of benefits by being early, by being the only result for FBA in books, being the only result for multiple keywords for merch by Amazon t-shirt designs.
[00:11:10] And that was really exciting because it was like really easy. Amazon is just giving us. All this traffic and it’s easy to get, load the sleep a little bit and be like, oh, my stuff must be amazing. It’s no, it’s just that you don’t have any competition. So you gotta be able to know when you’re in that.
[00:11:25] So you can say, okay, this isn’t gonna work in the future. There’s going to be more books about FBA. There’s gonna be more, father’s day t-shirts on Amazon instead of just this one page of 30 a month. Page one. Amazing. It’s like on page one, there’s nothing else to put on page one. So I’ve seen people get in myself.
[00:11:40] Wrapped up in that and thinking, oh my gosh, my stuff’s so much better than it really is. And I think you classify that as either. You have you earned organic traffic or did you get lucky and get some organic traffic? Are you there not many results on the internet? So Google shows you on page one.
[00:11:53] You’ve probably, you might just be lucky in early. Versus really earning it and being like, Hey, if you’re searching for this, Amazon is telling you this product is exactly what you want. And Amazon knows it because of the conversion rates, because of the reviews, because of the low returns, because of all of those things where you really earn that result and you don’t have to pay for it.
[00:12:11] But at the same time, I remind people all the time, Amazon. They don’t owe us anything. If all of a sudden they don’t show us in search results, there’s nothing we can do about it. We can’t go to them and say, no, we are the number one result. We’re a much better book than they don’t care. It’s an algorithm.
[00:12:25] They’re always trying to update it and make it better. But if it’s not showing her product, even though we used to, there’s not much you can do about it. So I always remember that Amazon does not. Anything, if we get that are getting traffic great, but that’s why you should aim for that, but then have a paid ad strategies on the backend, because if you can always pay for traffic, then you’re always going to be in business because what works today may not work tomorrow, but you can adjust.
[00:12:47] You can do what works tomorrow, what works next year, what works 10 years from now. And I don’t want people to get wrapped up and say, Hey, this works today. I’m going to do this forever. What works 20 years ago? Doesn’t work today. So have that short term. Yeah, this is going to work for the foreseeable future, but it may not work longterm future.
[00:13:04] So always be willing to adjust your strategies. Always be willing to learn, always be willing to listen to experts and experiment. And sometimes that means spending money without getting results and people gotta be okay with doing that. And if you want to have a long-term strategy, it’s a complicated topic
[00:13:17] Michael: and say, Spending money without results is a frustrating thing.
[00:13:21] But I guess the only thing I would add to that is results are in the form of that. You always get results. It just may not be the one you want. They’re always going to get data from it. And if you’re smart enough to learn from that and not run for the Hills. So I guess that’s when you really get to adjust, Kyle, hotcakes or responses.
[00:13:36] Kyle: Yeah, no, I think that. It’s a good call out, like getting responses. And in my calling, you always get responses. One of the benefits of paid advertising is you get immediate feedback relatively quickly. You can do. You’ll know whether or not your ad is going to get like the clicks that you were expecting or, the engagement that you’re hoping for, within a few days, and then it scale out and you see how it performs, maybe over 30 days, 60 day period, if you’re doing anything or getting.
[00:14:06] Usually now there are a few exceptions. There are a few exceptions that exist, I think on the internet today for organic traffic. But most of the organic work you’re doing, you’re building content. You’re slowly working towards it and it can take a long time for you to see the results that you’re looking for and you, and the feedback can be a little bit slower.
[00:14:24] Now, sometimes it’s quick, for example, I think that tick talk organic sort of the buyer reality of that platform. And some of the stuff with Instagram reels can give you pretty immediate feedback. If you create or produce content or work with an influencer produce amazing content. And it pops, it’ll pop pretty quickly and you’re going to get really great feedback and that’s going to be organic.
[00:14:44] It’s going to stay there and then you can choose to layer on paid traffic to keep it going if you want to. But that’s an example of like quick organic, but. SCO work with Google could take you six months, nine months, a year, two years, of process to really get, the information you need to know whether or not you’re totally on track and where you want to go.
[00:15:05] So I do think that you do get feedback. I do agree with that and I love, I think we should definitely push into self liquidating offer concept because that is, that is something that if everyone begins to understand that for their business, they can definitely online.
[00:15:19] Michael: Yeah. Excellent. So let me just jump in quickly on that.
[00:15:22] So with Jason, we’ll come to you in a second. I just wanted to talk about, paid versus organic, still seeing Kyle here. Yeah, just quickly a couple of things. To your point. Kyle, the speed of feedback is interesting, which for me relates back to the whole financial question you raise, of whether it’s going to be profitable or not, and going with a clear set of objectives and clear criteria KPIs that you’re going to hit clear numbers are going to hit in order to know whether it’s going to be sustainable or not.
[00:15:46] First thing, people who do Google SEO at scale have to buy. Writers in because you can’t do it at scale yourself and run an business because it’s a full-time job or more than, which means I know people that have spent 10, 20, $50,000 on SEO work. And to your point, they aren’t really going to know for quite a while, whether it’s going to pay off.
[00:16:06] So paid versus organic is a useful distinction, but I guess what we mean is pay per click or pay per view advertising versus, the slog and probably paying for organic positioning, to the point of the finances of a funnel, I’ve got a, A thing that I use called Giroux. I could even show you for those where you can see this.
[00:16:24] You won’t see this on a calling obviously, but it’s a frightening looking thing. But what it does is you can set up a funnel and then run based on the percentages that convert at different stages of the funnel and the money that you make or spend on ads or make back on products. You can see the overall profitability or not of the funnel.
[00:16:42] I think that this is a rather frightening version of what most of us need to do, which is the whole. Trying to work out whether an overall strategy overall set of advertising, plus whatever other things go into the mix is going to make us money or not. Which really Jason, I think brings us to yourself, lit liquidating offer or self-liquidating fund.
[00:17:02] Also tell us about.
[00:17:03] Jason: Yeah. Yeah, sure. Happy to mention it. I just jotted down. I think there’s eight things that fall into that category. Just as my quick back of the post-it note, brainstorming here suggests, I’ll rattle them off and maybe you guys have more, approaches to self-liquidating leads.
[00:17:18] And the general concept is, again, you don’t pay for this. They pay you. You have to work. There, there is a, you might call it earned leads because there is work involved. And in the old fashioned broadcast media that was paid, earned and owned, types of content. So this kind of these fall into sort of the earned or, worked for, but let me just mention them.
[00:17:40] We do, some or all of these, actually all of these, I think I could say we do all of them except. In our businesses. The first one is offer a free digital item and then have a paid upsell. This is a Shopify specific strategy. You can use a Zipify OneClickUpsell, you can use bold product upsell, you give away the free thing, and then you upsell and, on average, 5% of the people will take the upsell and that in mass pays.
[00:18:06] All the new, entrance, and many people come in free and they won’t buy the item that time that you offer it free. But the next time you offer something that maybe they will pay or buy something. If that makes sense, the second idea is, running challenges, cha a challenge through a ClickFunnel where, there’s a bump or a one-time offer an upsell in essence and the front end challenges free to.
[00:18:28] But some people will take the upsell again, creates a scenario in which that campaign is paid for in totality, by the people who do pay, but many people free ride free. That’s like a freemium model. You could call it in a way. Technically freemium models that another one. So this is a, that’s the ninth idea.
[00:18:44] The third one would be, a contests just straight, contest. And, will that pay for itself? It can, if you include a coupon code for all the entrance to your product, that’s this little pro tip, have a con. The entrance, get a coupon code to your website, and then they use that coupon code and boom, you’ve got self-liquidating leads coming through the door.
[00:19:05] The fourth thing, these are more for digital marketers, but you could create a course like on you to me, of course is on you to me. Then they pay you on you to me. And it’s building your list. Same thing for Kindle eBooks. Chris, you think about this, of course, with all your work is a Kindle book is.
[00:19:19] Content on Amazon, you get money for it, but you’re also building your leads. You could always be a speaker at events, trade shows, conferences, industry, events, you can blog on. So that’s six. You could blog on a platform like sub stack or the blogging platforms that now pay you.
[00:19:36] To, you have subscriptions for your blogging rather than just doing an old school, like on WordPress or your own website. And then the eight thing I would say is you could do a YouTube channel and you could be paid by YouTube and all those people who follow and find you on YouTube. Really.
[00:19:51] If you think about it, you’re getting money from YouTube and they’re being added to your prospects. So those are eight. I’m sure you guys probably have more, I don’t know, just a thoughts on any of that. Open to ideas
[00:20:02] Chris: free plus shipping book funnel. That’s that’s my favorite one, because it involves physical products. It involves getting something in their hands versus digital. I don’t get that excited about PDFs. But I love the Kindle version as well because it’s a product on Amazon. So it’s got like an anchor price.
[00:20:20] It’s Just like cost money. Like my, got it.
[00:20:22] Jason: Oh, this is really cool. So that’s, not everybody
[00:20:27] Chris: is, I don’t wanna say not capable of writing a book, but not everybody’s willing to sit down and do the work, create a book type product that is. Sales letter that is not, just fluff promotional material.
[00:20:38] It’s gotta have real information. This is why I put out a post. I took 40 of the most famous people that I could find that are published on Amazon, where they’re ghost writers or whatever. It doesn’t matter. But they see the power in having a book. There’s so much power in having a book. And then you use that for marketing.
[00:20:53] Like it doesn’t have to be a profit center of your book, but the things that your book opens up to you. Okay. The organic and paid traffic options that you have being on Amazon as a published author with a prime eligible print-on-demand product with a digital Kindle. The there’s just so many things.
[00:21:10] That’s a topic for another day or so I’m just going to keep it totally ranting
[00:21:13] Jason: on it. Just one, one response, that the reason self-liquidating leads are so powerful is because if you get them to work, they fuel your marketing at huge scale. And. Complete and total game changer, because then you’ve got front end dollars coming right in the door that are it’s basically, ramping or scaling your marketing budget instantly.
[00:21:34] And that’s very different than an expense in your P and L for marketing that you blow through. And then you’re like, wow, we don’t have any more dollars for advertising. Self-liquidating leads are the opposite. It creates. A fund instantly for you. So anyway,
[00:21:52] Michael: sorry, I was just going to jump in there and Kyle, then I get your takes on this.
[00:21:56] Just to your point, you just made Jason. I think it’s interesting that I can’t help thinking these days that a lot of the value of thought that goes into business, consulting or thinking about your own business, but away from the desk as it were away from the office, which is one of the things we do in the mastermind, obviously literally get people to leave their office and let their staff run their businesses.
[00:22:17] Is this that thinking about that Metta systems. Thank you camera. Sometimes the details matter as well. Thank you for reminding me of that camera. It’s it reminds me really of this flywheel concept, which, Jim Collins came up with and Jay and not coincidentally Jeff Bezos, one of the most strategic thinkers ever, I think in business really deep dive into very early on.
[00:22:35] And what you just described. I think Jason, is for me that the metaconcept is more important. Something where the output becomes. It becomes the output. So in other words, it creates organic scaling over time, and this is organic versus paid. What I mean is your business will start to naturally scale without you putting crazy amounts of investor money.
[00:22:52] It’s like the opposite of Uber or delivery grew in Britain. I think 57% revenues last year. And they only made one and a half percent EBITDAR loss. I’d be massively disappointed with that because that means you have to put more and more money in to grow it. That’s a horrendous business. What you’re describing I think is very exciting because.
[00:23:09] It naturally organically will tend towards scale if you just do put more money in the front end anyway, that’s my take,
[00:23:16] Kyle: No, I, it’s great because you don’t have to make it a defining line either between paid or organic. When thinking about self-liquidating offers, they can be very organic to Jason’s point.
[00:23:27] If you want to create a great YouTube content. And scale into that. You will eventually be getting paid by YouTube to get people into your top of your funnel and you can point them wherever you want to go. Ultimately with those videos, they can go to other funnels, they can go to your email, opt in, they can go to products that you want to sell.
[00:23:45] So you have that, you have that ability to, point them in the right direction. The other thing I would say though, too, is it goes back to my original point, is that in order to make self-liquidating offers work, you really need to understand the. In your business. Yeah. Particularly if you want to try and spend money on it, right?
[00:24:04] If you want to pay, because the nice thing about pay that we talked about is that you can crank up the volume. You can turn it up and you can turn it down. And so if you have it and it’s working. And you have a real clear right. Understanding. Okay. Here’s how much it’s costing me to, to acquire one of these, leads at breakeven, right?
[00:24:23] So maybe you have a free the, so for example, let’s use Chris’s example of a free plus shipping offer on a book. So the book that come in that you’re buying the book and it’s hopefully covering the cost of the shipping essentially for it, but then maybe there’s probably going to be some upsell component, in that funnel and free plus shipping. Excuse me. And so you get the email address, right? Which is one of the primary goals of, I think that’s one of the primary goals for self-liquidating lead, right? Is that you have a new email address, a new customer that you’ve been sending emails to, ultimately that you got for free.
[00:24:57] Because if you look at it, they come in the top of the funnel, they get the email address, they pay for the physical product, the book in this scenario, and then there’s these one or two upsells or however many you want to build into it. And the goal. And for your math is I may, I probably I’m going to probably lose money or at least break even ish if someone only buys the book, but I will be making money or at least covering that the cost of the.
[00:25:25] Because oftentimes if you charged for like a book offer, it’s $5 or maybe it’s eight, $8 or $9 for free plus shipping. If you’ve tried to ship anything like the size of a book anywhere, it’s probably going to cost you at least that much. And you’re going to be looking at it, looking at spending more, if you’re sending a physical copy.
[00:25:42] So you need some people to take that upsell component in order for you to actually cover, totally cover your costs. But so understanding. Those math components and where they all fit in to Michael’s point where he had like his beautiful little, visual of showing the funnel and the different pieces of it.
[00:25:58] As soon as you know that number and you start to test it and you’re trying, and you get that to work, like the amount of money you’re spending actually comes out of that funnel. That’s when you can start to really try to scale that up because for every dollar you’re putting in, you’re getting a dollar back plus you’re getting a customer.
[00:26:18] A paying customer top of that and the email address of a paying customer. That’s beautiful. Like you would put as much money as you possibly could into that, whatever you could afford. I would put a hundred thousand in, cause I want a hundred thousand buyers that are ready. That liked me that know and trust me now.
[00:26:35] And that’s pretty powerful.
[00:26:36] Michael: Great. Look, we better bring this thing to a close cause. We promised people hot takes and it’s always tempting. They always feels like there’s so much more we can discuss, which I’m sure we will in future episodes. So the conclusion of paid versus organic seems to be, get yourself a self-liquidating offer funnel built possibly with paid traffic at the front, possibly something else, which is that we’ve ended up an insane place.
[00:26:57] Certainly I love this topic. It’s something maybe we should deep dive into it at another point. Just a quick, rewind to speak. But if you want to find this we’re on the calling app where we seem to be ranking very nicely, organically, so we can have organic ranking. So we are there every Tuesday at 8:00 AM.
[00:27:13] And also we are going to be there. Jason and I doing our deep dives there live now as well, and 8:00 AM Pacific on Sundays. We are also ranking pretty well on, Spotify is going up and up all the time. So if you want to join us there, do subscribe to our channel there and do give us a Liko love.
[00:27:27] That’d be fantastic. It just reminds me to say many thanks to our panel. I’ll reverse engineer and, do the intro in the end, which is, Chris green, jason Miles. And I’m Michael Veazey in London, England signing off on behalf of the e-commerce leader. Thanks so much for listening,
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